Character Page

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Character Page

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:57 pm

So this got brought up in the chat a couple times, and mentioned in the relevant off-topic thread, and I figured it needed a place here.

Some of us were thinking of putting a GMs folder on the Character Page. What we do with it should really be up to you guys, though-- whether we do that at all, for one thing, and whether we list tropes that you've displayed since revealing yourselves, or whether you all suggest for each other tropes that you've displayed all along, in the same way that we've been doing for each other.

So just, uh, putting this out there.
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Re: Character Page

Postby Rick Healey on Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:32 pm

Well, that's a loaded question.

I suppose that I need to note, first and foremost, that the puppet masters were not characters in the game (no, not even me via Experiments in Food Preparation). We were the creators, and you only list tropes in real life about the creators that affect the game itself (stuff like Real Life Writes The Plot). We want folks to have fun and all, but we also need to respect the wiki's rules and procedures.

Making a Creator page for us also wouldn't be the best idea. Creator pages really aren't supposed to trope the Creator (several have been locked because people did so). They're supposed to list the works they've done, and the tropes on there should either be about the work or how they acted when they made an appearance as themselves in a work. So making a Creator page and troping us there would also be against wiki policy.

The only pages where you can really put up tropes about real people are Troper pages themselves. But even then, not everyone wants such things on their Troper page, and that should be up to them.

Personally, I'll offer a compromise. You're welcome, above the list of pages I've launched but below the description I wrote about myself, to make a folder where you can add tropes that you think are appropriate to me on my own Troper page. I'll only edit that section for grammar, proper wicking, organization (never use articles for purposes of alphabetization), and to make sure nothing nasty is said (and that it's relevant to me and not anyone else).

Since there are goofy oddities about finding it, here's the link: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/T ... oFootsteps

Also, as long as you obey the forum rules, there's nothing to stop you from listing tropes that you think apply here.
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Re: Character Page

Postby Dana on Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:00 pm

The most I would feel comfortable with would be a Trivia tab.
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Re: Character Page

Postby Bill Cohen on Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:20 pm

I'm not entirely comfortable with it, if only because I'm a teacher by trade and have to tread lightly with my digital footprint.
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Re: Character Page

Postby Connor Fallon on Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:25 pm

Have to agree with the others on this one.
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Re: Character Page

Postby Pixelmage on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:41 pm

It will be as you wish then.

On a related note, do you guys want to voice any concerns about the player entries in the character page?

Though I'm aware of the "players have more tropes than characters!" comment. :P

I've been trying to push for adding tropes to the characters but it's hard because we actually interact all the time with fellow players, so the tropes we notice most often are player tropes.

Also, as Adell pointed out, we established a rule not to use tropes of the original work that weren't directly invoked in the ARG as well and that limited quite a bit of our selection pool. For some characters like Todd for instance, we had next to no interaction to actually get tropes from, not using the original work's tropes means we're down to the Echo tropes and maybe one or two from a stray message. So, should we at least partially lift that restriction or keep them with less, but ARG specific tropes only?
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Re: Character Page

Postby Rick Healey on Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:07 pm

Well, one obvious concern is the number of YMMV tropes on the Character page. I have a dream of seeing absolutely no orange dots on any of the The Wall Will Fall pages.

I do think it'd be best to stop requesting others add tropes, and also cut tropes that have nothing to do with the game (I know for a fact that none of you are actually packing weapons that matter in this ARG; I didn't launch Weapon Of Choice all those years ago so that folks could just cite it for their favorite weapon). Folks have troper pages (or can make ones) if they want to add what they feel represents themselves; the page for the game should describe what's in the game.

Also, Adell's rule isn't necessarily the best one. If a character demonstrates the same trope in their original universe and in our game, it makes sense to cite them for that in both. For example, Cheshire Cat gets cited as Perpetual Smiler in both (well, up until OOC Is Serious Business got invoked in the ARG). However, Poirot was not the Big Eater in our game that he was in the original canon, so he wouldn't get cited for that.

In short, add the tropes that actually happened in the ARG, be it for the characters or the players.
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Re: Character Page

Postby Ben Plante on Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:11 pm

My idea when I read this proposition earlier was that you guys don't make it a trope page, but a forum thread, with the first post continuously being updated as you add tropes for us.

That's the only way I could see it working.
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Re: Character Page

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:24 pm

Ben Plante wrote:My idea when I read this proposition earlier was that you guys don't make it a trope page, but a forum thread, with the first post continuously being updated as you add tropes for us.

That's the only way I could see it working.


That could actually be really awesome. Sort of like our Cast Calculus thread in offtopic, for stuff that's too silly to really be on the tvtropes page.
Now I'm tempted to start that thread, if someone else doesn't first.
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Character Page

Postby Tom on Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:46 pm

I don't mind players having tropes. But if I had been a player, I would have suggested a hard rule: No player with more tropes than a major character.

You could also move player stuff onto their Troper pages, linking to it from the Character page. The only stuff I'm sure should stay there is stuff like Adell punching out Cthulhu, Scarab managing the Witch, Sicon defeating the Witch, etc. Direct, unique interactions.

You can take my suggestions or not.
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Re: Character Page

Postby Pixelmage on Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:14 pm

Well, so far I'm apparently the only one actually trying to filter the things in there. :(
Fellow metaguards, I feel honored if that means you trust me to carry out this task, but if I keep making all the calls, eventually I'll end up making wrong ones.

All the player pages linked are properly linked, so no redlinks to any tropers, moving it there is viable should the player want to.

I like you suggestion, but I'm treading very carefully while I'm alone in the task. So my immediate focus is on YMMV and Coffee Room things that shouldn't be there regardless.

But that raises a question, say we have a player without any major interaction noted. I'll use myself as an example and say all my tropes are gone due to clean up, leaving me with only a description and possibly a quote. In such a case would it be ok to keep the player entry in there acknowledging him for participating and keeping the link to his troper page where he can keep the personal tropes that were cut, or would that require us to remove the entry altogether?
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Re: Character Page

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:27 pm

On this note, because some people seem to be taking tropes personally, I'm planning to start two threads in Off-Topic: One to maintain not-quite-relevant-for-the-page tropes for players, hopefully to maintain in tvtropes style (I'm toying with either constantly editing a mega-OP based on people's requests in subsequent posts, or suggesting people maintain and edit their own tropes in a personal post in the thread, with input from other people), and one for GM tropes, just for fun.

Note: I just got back and haven't checked yet, so I don't know if someone's already started something in Off-topic making this superfluous. Also, I'm going to hold off on starting this in case someone either wants to say why it's a bad idea, or has an even better idea to replace it.
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Re: Character Page

Postby Pixelmage on Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:50 pm

RR brought me a question that I don't really know how to respond.
I believe community interactions among the players are a part of the ARG, something that did shape how we acted here. But, how much focus should that receive?

I ask because, say, Lordxana. He's the origin of the two Quotes in the main page. We all recognize his contributions in cheering us up to keep going. Even if he does not have a chosen refic or any collected Echoes, there's no way we can deny acknowledging him for that somehow. And that's a strictly community level thing.

At the same time, it's obvious that the Coffee Room is also ingrained into our community here. Even the players who didn't follow it knew what "Green Stuff (TM)" was when we mentioned it elsewhere. But that one is just a silly sidequest that would require an obnoxious amount of space to properly represent and, again, not everyone took part in it. So it's clearly something that shouldn't be explored there further than the nod already in the Main Page stating that it existed.

Mainly I see it as a case by case thing. I'm just not sure about to what degree this should be explored and noted.

I also reiterate my previous question: Should a player become tropeless after the revision is properly done, what should be done? Remove him completely, or keep his entry as an acknowledgement of having participated? Take a third option and compile a list of all the player's Troper Pages and link it for reference?

I'll use Enlil's entry as an example: He only has 1 trope at the moment. In case it is removed, for whatever reason, should we remove a player who's a Meta-Knight, meaning a canonical contribution?
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Re: Character Page

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:55 pm

I say keep names, because part of it being a Character Page means listing characters. Even if there aren't associated tropes, it's a more complete and accurate page if everyone involved is listed in the appropriate section.
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Character Page

Postby eli_gone_crazy on Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:50 pm

For once I agree with Qara. If someone has made a contribution, regardless of what the contribution was, they should be listed and credited for the time and effort spent. Take Xana for example, he acted as a motivator to help keep others actively involved in the game, and solving the puzzles. He deserves credit for that.
Enlil deserves credit for finding a wall piece, regardless of the tropes present.

That's just my standpoint, so listen to the GM's on this one. :P
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Re: Character Page

Postby BlackWolfe on Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:00 pm

Here's my view:

  1. Anyone who participated in the ARG is a player and should be listed. Tropes for them are not necessary.
  2. Tropes should involve the ARG in some way. Overall behavior in the forums and chat, things that actually pertain to their participation in the ARG and events surrounding it. Forum RPs not so much.
  3. Tropes should preferably be provable by chat log or link to forum, Facebook timeline, or tweets.
  4. Any Tropeless Wonders could get One Of Us if you don't like seeing barren entries, because that is pretty much a given for anyone playing a TVTropes-related ARG.
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Re: Character Page

Postby Rick Healey on Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:20 pm

Well, first things first, I will note that it's a bit awkward to even discuss the trope page for the game. We puppet masters were the author of the work. While TV Tropes policy is to have the author be allowed to edit the trope page for their own work, they are to be considered the same status as any other troper who wants to edit that page.

I have two competing impulses in my head. One is someone who has been troping for many years, has launched several dozen pages, and has a pretty solid idea of what a page should look like, including what tropes are actually relevant to the work. The other is as an author who doesn't want to be dictating what the trope page for his own work would be like, because I know just how annoying it can be to deal with Word Of God on a page (particularly considering Death Of The Author and the fact that authors aren't always successful in the tropes that they tried to invoke - this is actually a major consideration that I deal with every day that I participate in the Complete Monster cleanup, which is well over a year old and over 6300 posts long; and you call the thread "A Grave Announcement From Mister Administrator" a "megathread".... ha!).

As such, anyone who looks at the edit history will note that I only did two edits to the main TWWF page - one to include Mr. A's full quote under Wham Line (I felt the context helped illustrate why that was a Wham Line), and one to correct spelling (the classic cannon vs. canon error that springs up commonly on trope pages). I figured that these were pretty uncontroversial edits, and that nobody would mind if I made them. However, if I was to start adding tropes that I think might apply to certain aspects of the creation (not naming any, because that'll seem like I'm fishing), that's when we start getting into the awkward issues I named before.

So, that said, the way I personally look at the forums is that the Off-Topic section was wholly just a community area that had no direct impact on the game. It's no different than a fan forum for any other work. Stuff in other forums would count, though, because that was the role played in-game (except, of course, when dealing with off-topic hijacking). Figuring out puzzles is just as important to the overall success as a team as someone who unites the team in the first place - that's why The Smart Guy and The Heart are both tropes.

There are personality tropes that did come up enough times in on-topic threads that you can legitimately make an argument that they should apply (I can think of at least one for Sicon; I'll let folks try to figure out which one I mean). But there are plenty of others that would not (unless you made a point to be downing hot chocolate constantly as you were doing puzzles, and were frequently cited as such even by other players, tropes related to said hot chocolate wouldn't be appropriate).

As for listing names, even if there are no tropes attached, I think it is fair to have a section where you list the names of all the participants. How that should be further organized, particularly for the less active players that would otherwise have no tropes to attach, is something that I'll leave others to decide; again, I don't want to feel like I'm puppet mastering our work's page. But I will say that I think many of you are still pretty new to troping. I understand that you guys probably don't have quite the massive familiarity with TV Tropes that I do (I actually forget just how long I've been on TV Tropes, but it's been at least since 2007, based on recommendations I've made in other forums - this means that I helped deal with, among other things, the Great Crash and both Google Incidents), so I don't blame you for missing some of the stuff that seems obvious to me.

That said, I can think of at least two tropes for everyone. No, I'm not going to tell what they are; part of the fun of the process is learning these things for yourself.
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Re: Character Page

Postby BlackWolfe on Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:37 pm

Rick Healey wrote:That said, I can think of at least two tropes for everyone. No, I'm not going to tell what they are; part of the fun of the process is learning these things for yourself.


Is that two that cover the lot of us, or two each? :) Seriously, though, you've pretty much reiterated what I was trying to say, except more clearly. I blame sheep deprivation.
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Re: Character Page

Postby Rick Healey on Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:42 pm

BlackWolfe wrote:
Rick Healey wrote:That said, I can think of at least two tropes for everyone. No, I'm not going to tell what they are; part of the fun of the process is learning these things for yourself.


Is that two that cover the lot of us, or two each? :) Seriously, though, you've pretty much reiterated what I was trying to say, except more clearly. I blame sheep deprivation.


Two each. Like I mentioned before, part of my job was watching the community.

As for the ovine issue, I snapped during the day on New Year's Eve so that I wouldn't disrupt my schedule too much even when I was awake past 4. Gotta plan ahead.
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Re: Character Page

Postby BlackWolfe on Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:56 pm

Rick Healey wrote:
BlackWolfe wrote:Two each. Like I mentioned before, part of my job was watching the community.

As for the ovine issue, I snapped during the day on New Year's Eve so that I wouldn't disrupt my schedule too much even when I was awake past 4. Gotta plan ahead.


My problem is that my bosses can't plan ahead and keep forgetting to schedule someone to relieve me so I CAN go home and tend to my flock.
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Re: Character Page

Postby Pixelmage on Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:00 pm

Rick Healey wrote:But I will say that I think many of you are still pretty new to troping. I understand that you guys probably don't have quite the massive familiarity with TV Tropes that I do, so I don't blame you for missing some of the stuff that seems obvious to me.

That's exactly my issue. :oops:

I've been reading the wiki for quite long now, but actually editing and trying to be an active troper is something I began doing during the ARG.

So thanks for the advice. And don't hesitate to call me out if I start breaking stuff! I really want to avoid that.
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Re: Character Page

Postby Jeroic9 on Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:21 pm

I'm not very active as far as adding tropes goes, but if I think of something I'll add it.

And good point on the Wham Line for Prime, I really should have thought to put the whole thing there.
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Re: Character Page

Postby Dryunya on Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:44 am

Thread hop (ok, I actually read the thread, but, as always, can't recall anything :? ):
Move the player list to the trivia page, under a separate folder. Move the player tropes to the troper pages. Move the plot-important player tropes to the main page (no one probably has more than two of these). Bam, problem solved. :gurt:
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Re: Character Page

Postby Pixelmage on Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:34 am

Dryunya wrote:
  1. Move the player list to the trivia page, under a separate folder.
  2. Move the player tropes to the troper pages.
  3. Move the plot-important player tropes to the main page (no one probably has more than two of these).
  4. Bam, problem solved. :gurt:

Dryu, where were you when I was left alone in the revision thread?! :D

PS.: You forgot the [list] tag. ;)
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Re: Character Page

Postby RotavatoR on Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:43 am

Dryunya wrote:Thread hop (ok, I actually read the thread, but, as always, can't recall anything :? ):
Move the player list to the trivia page, under a separate folder. Move the player tropes to the troper pages. Move the plot-important player tropes to the main page (no one probably has more than two of these). Bam, problem solved. :gurt:

So basically this is a way to remove the Players from the Character page alltogether?
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