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OK, I was running out the door when I made that post, so allow me to clarify.

First, by the time we figure out how to close the wall, one of three things is going to happen. Either it will be determined that characters may remain here safely, determined that characters cause damage by their presence, or finally both theories will remain unconfirmed.

If characters can remain safely in reality, they should be allowed to choose. However, as Mr. A said, they do not belong here. We are already seeing this with the Witch. She comes from a relatively fantastic world, so this is a huge change for her. People like Romeo come from relatively more realistic worlds, so they have yet to show a whole lot of side effects. But should the fourth wall be closed, the narrative laws that are even now leaking through and helping them along will vanish. In short: Reality Ensues. The reason why Romeo and Juliet were found and taken in by such nice people is likely the narrative laws that are slipping in to our world. When those get taken away, Romeo becomes a normal man with no money, assets, education, or even citizenship in any country. He will be trapped in our world forever, and will likely never be successful, doomed to, at best, an existence just brushing the lower edge of middle class. With the economy as it is, if there is any huge crash or something similar he will be in significantly worse straights. If he still wishes to remain after knowing this, then it will be his choice, but I think it is only fair to explain all of that to him if such a choice does become necessary. The same could be said of all fictionals.

Continuing, should it be proven that characters are harmful to reality, then he must go, regardless of what he wishes. He does not have the right to choose to stay is such a case. I think we can agree on that. True, it would be best if we can convince him, but if we can't, I am willing to force his hand. In any case, I know full well what Mr. A will do in such a situation, and there is little chance of stopping that. However, this does not mean he must go to his own reality, as we have previously discussed. Still, suggesting something involving real people crossing into fiction is a really bad idea. I HIGHLY doubt anything would happen other than the death of those involved and possibly the destruction of reality, or a portion of it, anyway. It's only a theory at the moment though, so it would be best if someone could confirm this with Mr. A. Fictional copies of people are more workable, but Wacky just stated the inherent problem. Should we copy Vanessa, for instance, because Romeo does not want to leave her, it will do nothing. As you just said, it is possible to fictionalize people without them ever knowing. This means that the original person would exist in reality through it all, and thus, there is no transfer of consciousness. Therefore, Romeo will leave Vanessa regardless, but he will just have a copy of her for himself while she is left alone on our layer. This is what I was getting at earlier.

Finally, should neither be confirmed or Jossed, then we do not know which one is the case, just as now. This means that there is a chance of either being true, and thus, we have a choice. We can act hoping that the first is true, risking all of reality in the process, all in the pursuit of a happy ending for everyone, which may or may not happen if Reality Ensues, or we can act as a precaution against he second being true, giving, once again, an unsure chance of a happy ending, but this time not risking reality for it. Personally, I think that the second option is better all around, since there is more likely to be a good end. After all, if we choose the universe in which we put him, all we need to do is find one at the right point on the Sliding Scale Of Idealism Versus Cynicism to make "happily ever after" possible.

Does that make where I stand clear?

If that chatroom is true, someone is planning angainst Romeo and Juliet.

Laconic: we should be getting ready to send them into Alternate Universes.

Victin wrote:If that chatroom is true, someone is planning angainst Romeo and Juliet.

Relax. It's not. Just a few guys (or less) posting breakup-encouraging comments on Romeo's blog. Nothing else they can do.

Dryunya wrote:Laconic: we should be getting ready to send them into Alternate Universes.

And Dryu makes my ramblings easy to understand once again. Thanks, mate.

Sicon112 wrote:OK, I was running out the door when I made that post, so allow me to clarify.

First, by the time we figure out how to close the wall, one of three things is going to happen. Either it will be determined that characters may remain here safely, determined that characters cause damage by their presence, or finally both theories will remain unconfirmed.

If characters can remain safely in reality, they should be allowed to choose. However, as Mr. A said, they do not belong here. We are already seeing this with the Witch. She comes from a relatively fantastic world, so this is a huge change for her. People like Romeo come from relatively more realistic worlds, so they have yet to show a whole lot of side effects. But should the fourth wall be closed, the narrative laws that are even now leaking through and helping them along will vanish. In short: Reality Ensues. The reason why Romeo and Juliet were found and taken in by such nice people is likely the narrative laws that are slipping in to our world. When those get taken away, Romeo becomes a normal man with no money, assets, education, or even citizenship in any country. He will be trapped in our world forever, and will likely never be successful, doomed to, at best, an existence just brushing the lower edge of middle class. With the economy as it is, if there is any huge crash or something similar he will be in significantly worse straights. If he still wishes to remain after knowing this, then it will be his choice, but I think it is only fair to explain all of that to him if such a choice does become necessary. The same could be said of all fictionals.

Continuing, should it be proven that characters are harmful to reality, then he must go, regardless of what he wishes. He does not have the right to choose to stay is such a case. I think we can agree on that. True, it would be best if we can convince him, but if we can't, I am willing to force his hand. In any case, I know full well what Mr. A will do in such a situation, and there is little chance of stopping that. However, this does not mean he must go to his own reality, as we have previously discussed. Still, suggesting something involving real people crossing into fiction is a really bad idea. I HIGHLY doubt anything would happen other than the death of those involved and possibly the destruction of reality, or a portion of it, anyway. It's only a theory at the moment though, so it would be best if someone could confirm this with Mr. A. Fictional copies of people are more workable, but Wacky just stated the inherent problem. Should we copy Vanessa, for instance, because Romeo does not want to leave her, it will do nothing. As you just said, it is possible to fictionalize people without them ever knowing. This means that the original person would exist in reality through it all, and thus, there is no transfer of consciousness. Therefore, Romeo will leave Vanessa regardless, but he will just have a copy of her for himself while she is left alone on our layer. This is what I was getting at earlier.

Finally, should neither be confirmed or Jossed, then we do not know which one is the case, just as now. This means that there is a chance of either being true, and thus, we have a choice. We can act hoping that the first is true, risking all of reality in the process, all in the pursuit of a happy ending for everyone, which may or may not happen if Reality Ensues, or we can act as a precaution against he second being true, giving, once again, an unsure chance of a happy ending, but this time not risking reality for it. Personally, I think that the second option is better all around, since there is more likely to be a good end. After all, if we choose the universe in which we put him, all we need to do is find one at the right point on the Sliding Scale Of Idealism Versus Cynicism to make "happily ever after" possible.

Does that make where I stand clear?

This Sounds Really Bad But If Romeo Outright Refuses To Cooperate. Would We Have To Kill Him To Save Reality Or Does He HAVE To Go Back Through The Wall.

TheJester wrote:This Sounds Really Bad But If Romeo Outright Refuses To Cooperate. Would We Have To Kill Him To Save Reality Or Does He HAVE To Go Back Through The Wall.

The death of a fictional on this side of the wall will have an unknown and, at least with our current information, completely unpredictable myriad of effects. Therefore, we will do all we can to remove him to the other side of the wall. If it is a choice between sure destruction and the unknown results of killing a fictional, we may need to go that far. However, I do not think, at least in this situation, it will go that far. I don't think Romeo is capable of making it impossible for Mr. A and his massive network to remove him.

The more dangerous members of the Cabal may end up being a different story, however...

Death Tropes are a thing, too, so killing a fictional would not necessarily guarantee ending the damage they're causing to our reality.

JackAlsworth wrote:Death Tropes are a thing, too, so killing a fictional would not necessarily guarantee ending the damage they're causing to our reality.

As covered above, we may need to risk that if one of the dangerous fictionals makes removal impossible, even by force. Again, I do not think it will come to that.

Sicon112 wrote:

TheJester wrote:This Sounds Really Bad But If Romeo Outright Refuses To Cooperate. Would We Have To Kill Him To Save Reality Or Does He HAVE To Go Back Through The Wall.

The death of a fictional on this side of the wall will have an unknown and, at least with our current information, completely unpredictable myriad of effects. Therefore, we will do all we can to remove him to the other side of the wall. If it is a choice between sure destruction and the unknown results of killing a fictional, we may need to go that far. However, I do not think, at least in this situation, it will go that far. I don't think Romeo is capable of making it impossible for Mr. A and his massive network to remove him.

The more dangerous members of the Cabal may end up being a different story, however...

Also, if we assume that at some level we can influence fictional behaviour through author powers, by, let's say, writing out a story where Gurt drags a kicking and screaming Doucheo through the void to dump him on the fiction side... Why even consider a messy plan like killing?

Pixelmage wrote:

Sicon112 wrote:

TheJester wrote:This Sounds Really Bad But If Romeo Outright Refuses To Cooperate. Would We Have To Kill Him To Save Reality Or Does He HAVE To Go Back Through The Wall.

The death of a fictional on this side of the wall will have an unknown and, at least with our current information, completely unpredictable myriad of effects. Therefore, we will do all we can to remove him to the other side of the wall. If it is a choice between sure destruction and the unknown results of killing a fictional, we may need to go that far. However, I do not think, at least in this situation, it will go that far. I don't think Romeo is capable of making it impossible for Mr. A and his massive network to remove him.

The more dangerous members of the Cabal may end up being a different story, however...

Also, if we assume that at some level we can influence fictional behaviour through author powers, by, let's say, writing out a story where Gurt drags a kicking and screaming Doucheo through the void to dump him on the fiction side... Why even consider a messy plan like killing?

What If It Comes To The Point That Some Fictionals Become A Danger. Won't They Be Given Justice For Crimes Committed Here?

Pixelmage wrote:

Sicon112 wrote:

TheJester wrote:This Sounds Really Bad But If Romeo Outright Refuses To Cooperate. Would We Have To Kill Him To Save Reality Or Does He HAVE To Go Back Through The Wall.

The death of a fictional on this side of the wall will have an unknown and, at least with our current information, completely unpredictable myriad of effects. Therefore, we will do all we can to remove him to the other side of the wall. If it is a choice between sure destruction and the unknown results of killing a fictional, we may need to go that far. However, I do not think, at least in this situation, it will go that far. I don't think Romeo is capable of making it impossible for Mr. A and his massive network to remove him.

The more dangerous members of the Cabal may end up being a different story, however...

Also, if we assume that at some level we can influence fictional behaviour through author powers, by, let's say, writing out a story where Gurt drags a kicking and screaming Doucheo through the void to dump him on the fiction side... Why even consider a messy plan like killing?

Exactly. However, like I said, the Cabal and other dangerous characters may be so much more powerful/intelligent that such a thing does not fully suspend disbelief. Also, it's likely that as long as they are on this side of the wall, such stories could not be elevated to "cannon" fully, and would only serve to slightly weigh probability on our side.

And of course, it would also make Gurt or another Guardian come to our side, which might have bad consequences on the wall.

TheJester wrote:What If It Comes To The Point That Some Fictionals Become A Danger. Won't They Be Given Justice For Crimes Committed Here?

Perhaps. But it would be best if such justice takes place on the other side of the wall, where we have full control and can ensure the punishment is both completed and has no negative effects on us.

Romeo will not be cooperative. Romeo is a dick.

NeverSlender wrote:Romeo will not be cooperative. Romeo is a dick.

How would you feel if your original girlfriend wouldn't shut up about a place you would rather not go to and not provide a coherent reason why? Romeo just feels he is being over burdened by Juliet's constant "So about that Verona..." shtick.

TheJester wrote:

NeverSlender wrote:Romeo will not be cooperative. Romeo is a dick.

How would you feel if your original girlfriend wouldn't shut up about a place you would rather not go to and not provide a coherent reason why? Romeo just feels he is being over burdened by Juliet's constant "So about that Verona..." shtick.

If your gonna be pedantic, his original girlfriend is Rosaline, who he no longer gives a shit about.

I'm not sympathetic to a cheater who doesn't have the backbone to tell someone that he's moved on. Romeo is a coward, a moron, and completely unashamed. Juliet is homesick. Instead of being understanding, Romeo shacks up with the next girl he sees. Romeo is clearly in the wrong here, no matter how you sway it.

Zup wrote:I'm not sympathetic to a cheater who doesn't have the backbone to tell someone that he's moved on. Romeo is a coward, a moron, and completely unashamed. Juliet is homesick. Instead of being understanding, Romeo shacks up with the next girl he sees. Romeo is clearly in the wrong here, no matter how you sway it.

I completely agree with you. Romeo is an idiot who deserves everything he gets.

NeverSlender wrote:

Zup wrote:I'm not sympathetic to a cheater who doesn't have the backbone to tell someone that he's moved on. Romeo is a coward, a moron, and completely unashamed. Juliet is homesick. Instead of being understanding, Romeo shacks up with the next girl he sees. Romeo is clearly in the wrong here, no matter how you sway it.

I completely agree with you. Romeo is an idiot who deserves everything he gets.

Precisely.

NeverSlender wrote:

TheJester wrote:

NeverSlender wrote:Romeo will not be cooperative. Romeo is a dick.

How would you feel if your original girlfriend wouldn't shut up about a place you would rather not go to and not provide a coherent reason why? Romeo just feels he is being over burdened by Juliet's constant "So about that Verona..." shtick.

If your gonna be pedantic, his original girlfriend is Rosaline, who he no longer gives a shit about.

If you're going to be pedantic, that is a false statement. Romeo went to the Capulet party to forget about Rosaline, who rejected him in favor of remaining celibate. =) He did succeed in forgetting about her fairly quickly though.

ToMorning wrote:If you're going to be pedantic, that is a false statement. Romeo went to the Capulet party to forget about Rosaline, who rejected him in favor of remaining celibate. =) He did succeed in forgetting about her fairly quickly though.

Though, at this point and during the main swing of the play, he still didn't give a shit about her. :/

IslaKariese wrote:

ToMorning wrote:If you're going to be pedantic, that is a false statement. Romeo went to the Capulet party to forget about Rosaline, who rejected him in favor of remaining celibate. =) He did succeed in forgetting about her fairly quickly though.

Though, at this point and during the main swing of the play, he still didn't give a shit about her. :/

Romeo is a twat. He is about my age and I feel ashamed of that. The fact that he is similar to me in any way makes my skin crawl. He is scum, and I hope he realises how much pain he causes people.

NeverSlender wrote:

IslaKariese wrote:Though, at this point and during the main swing of the play, he still didn't give a shit about her. :/

Romeo is a twat. He is about my age and I feel ashamed of that. The fact that he is similar to me in any way makes my skin crawl. He is scum, and I hope he realises how much pain he causes people.

I've got the strangest feeling that if you don't find some way to calm down some, you're going to break something.

IslaKariese wrote:

NeverSlender wrote:

IslaKariese wrote:Though, at this point and during the main swing of the play, he still didn't give a shit about her. :/

Romeo is a twat. He is about my age and I feel ashamed of that. The fact that he is similar to me in any way makes my skin crawl. He is scum, and I hope he realises how much pain he causes people.

I've got the strangest feeling that if you don't find some way to calm down some, you're going to break something.

Or someone, more specifically....

Sicon112 wrote:Or someone, more specifically....

I'm not sure we can beat fictional characters to a pulp...

IslaKariese wrote:

Sicon112 wrote:Or someone, more specifically....

I'm not sure we can beat fictional characters to a pulp...

Hmmm... That gives me an idea for a science experiment...