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To clarify my "It's not their fault they're villains" thing: They are no more responsible for being evil than, say, the Witch is. And it gives them added incentive to want to get out of their stories: If you were trapped in a reality where you couldn't be on the side of good no matter what, would you want to go back there either?

But the actions of the characters once they enter our reality are what we must judge them by. We've all been accepting of the Witch. She's a villain, but she's sympathetic and has proved Affably Evil. And lots of these characters are changing from their default states. A change in circumstances often changes people. Also, stories are written from a certain viewpoint, and there are many characters who behave as villains but whose choices may have been represented in a different light than they appeared to the character at the time.

If we reacted to Moriarty with a reflexive "Get out of here, villain!" without giving him a chance to adjust to life here, we'd be making a mistake.

But, as I noted in my post that got dragged up, the actions of the Cabal HAVE been villainous, evil, and destructive in this reality. We ought to judge all the characters based on their actions upon entering the real world, and based on the Cabal's actions, we can confidently say they are bad and need to go home. I did NOT suggest that the Cabal were just misunderstood; I meant to suggest that a kneejerk reaction would be inappropriate, but acknowledged that at this point there is no doubt that they do not deserve our sympathy or support.

Also, my favorite author is Jasper Fforde, so I have a really hard time not thinking about all this as if it's happening in the Thursday Nextverse. In which case, characters in books kind of are played by actors. Some of whom go rogue sometimes. And villains can actually be super nice people outside of their books. I realize this is a wholly different situation, but still. That's where my brain goes.

Holy crap someone else read Thursday Next

I agree with you, up to a point. Everyone gets a chance to prove their innocence and will to change, but the evidence we have implies that characters' personalities don't change a whole ton on this side of the wall.

narrativedilettante wrote:To clarify my "It's not their fault they're villains" thing: They are no more responsible for being evil than, say, the Witch is. And it gives them added incentive to want to get out of their stories: If you were trapped in a reality where you couldn't be on the side of good no matter what, would you want to go back there either?

Now see, THIS is what I'm talking about. You are assuming a cause and effect where THERE ISN'T ONE. They are not "trapped where they cannot join the side of good" they do not join the side of good because they have no reason to. Inside their realities, there IS NO REASON for them to join the side of good. They are EVIL because that is their CHARACTER. They do not WANT to join the side of good. In fact, as far as their reality is concerned, IT'S REAL. Each person has a personality, each effect has a cause. It isn't that the writer forces them to be evil unwillingly. The reality is that the writer creates the whole WORLD so that they are evil. They are by NATURE evil. As far as their level of reality is concerned, there is no "writer" forcing them to do something, there is cause and effect traveling onward.

narrativedilettante wrote:But the actions of the characters once they enter our reality are what we must judge them by. We've all been accepting of the Witch. She's a villain, but she's sympathetic and has proved Affably Evil. And lots of these characters are changing from their default states. A change in circumstances often changes people. Also, stories are written from a certain viewpoint, and there are many characters who behave as villains but whose choices may have been represented in a different light than they appeared to the character at the time.

I disagree once more. The way they act in their stories in an inescapable part of them. They CAN change now that they are here, but their stories tell us what they are willing to do when given a reason to do something.

narrativedilettante wrote:If we reacted to Moriarty with a reflexive "Get out of here, villain!" without giving him a chance to adjust to life here, we'd be making a mistake.

The proper reaction to Moriarty is to be very worried. The crimes he committed in his story are still just as wrong as if he had committed them here. As we see now, these characters are people in the same way we are people. The same can be said of everyone his actions have ever hurt. Therefore, he IS a villain already, and should be treated as one.

I advise extreme caution, but I want to hear their reasoning.
For one simple reason, Frankenstein's monster (in the story), did wrong things because he wasn't aware of moral boundaries.
He was vilified for being different. All of the characters are transitioning between worlds, and I am strongly against double standards.

Peter Pan (in our world), broke into a house where a little girl was, and we consider that to be him not understanding how our world works.
Several villains send threatening letters/emails, and we consider that tantamount to an act of war.

Am I saying that what the cabal did was right? No. I strongly disagree with it. However I want to see their side of things before I start with the proverbial torches and pitchforks.

eli_gone_crazy wrote:I advise extreme caution, but I want to hear their reasoning.
For one simple reason, Frankenstein's monster (in the story), did wrong things because he wasn't aware of moral boundaries.
He was vilified for being different. All of the characters are transitioning between worlds, and I am strongly against double standards.

Peter Pan (in our world), broke into a house where a little girl was, and we consider that to be him not understanding how our world works.
Several villains send threatening letters/emails, and we consider that tantamount to an act of war.

Am I saying that what the cabal did was right? No. I strongly disagree with it. However I want to see their side of things before I start with the proverbial torches and pitchforks.

The difference between Pan and the Cabal is their motives. We know Pan didn't mean any harm. He just wanted to go on an adventure like he does in the story. The Cabal knew what they were doing was wrong. They meant to terrorize Joe and Joan. Their intentions were bad, regardless of what world they were in.

WackyMeetsPractical wrote:

eli_gone_crazy wrote:I advise extreme caution, but I want to hear their reasoning.
For one simple reason, Frankenstein's monster (in the story), did wrong things because he wasn't aware of moral boundaries.
He was vilified for being different. All of the characters are transitioning between worlds, and I am strongly against double standards.

Peter Pan (in our world), broke into a house where a little girl was, and we consider that to be him not understanding how our world works.
Several villains send threatening letters/emails, and we consider that tantamount to an act of war.

Am I saying that what the cabal did was right? No. I strongly disagree with it. However I want to see their side of things before I start with the proverbial torches and pitchforks.

The difference between Pan and the Cabal is their motives. We know Pan didn't mean any harm. He just wanted to go on an adventure like he does in the story. The Cabal knew what they were doing was wrong. They meant to terrorize Joe and Joan. Their intentions were bad, regardless of what world they were in.

Do what you will. But if these characters are now capable of free will then, as someone else said, they are capable of change. Pushing them towards their more, vile, nature only serves to further alienate us from our goal, which is to send them back.

I don't want to work with them. They all have done horrible things that they need to be judged for.
Iwill work with them to send them home. I am only capable of judging them for what they have done here, let their fictional counterparts judge them for what happened across the wall.

As for motivations, the wicked witch was bent on world domination (albeit in a hilarious way) until we came along. The characters have shown the ability to choose, and who are we to stop them from trying to become better?

Mr. A still hasn't responded to my tweet from last night (RE: Is Cindy back behind the wall), so I think we can assume he has nothing to say on the matter for now.

S_o_S wrote:Mr. A still hasn't responded to my tweet from last night (RE: Is Cindy back behind the wall), so I think we can assume he has nothing to say on the matter for now.

And also, probably, that she isn't there. M'sure he would've said something otherwise. Damn it, I get nervous when he's being quiet... and he's quiet a lot. So I've spent a lot of the last couple of weeks really nervous.

What do Ugg Boots have to do with the ARG?

Or are you SPAMMING?

The Wild West Pyro wrote:What do Ugg Boots have to do with the ARG?

Or are you SPAMMING?

It's part of the conspiracy by the cabal to make every thread useless.

On a side note, although most of the convo's I've had with Mr. A have been a little, off-topic, he normally responds within a day or two. One does wonder what he actually does in the bright white void.

eli_gone_crazy wrote:

The Wild West Pyro wrote:What do Ugg Boots have to do with the ARG?

Or are you SPAMMING?

It's part of the conspiracy by the cabal to make every thread useless.

On a side note, although most of the convo's I've had with Mr. A have been a little, off-topic, he normally responds within a day or two. One does wonder what he actually does in the bright white void.

What he does, really, is generally, watch the TV.

A TV which shows the characters doing things...- AND US TYPING ON OUR MACS/PCS/POWERBOOKS/HPS/VAIO/TABLETS, etc.

AND HE'S WATCHING ME AND US TYPE RIGHT NOW!

Then maybe he'll finally go into the coffee room and end my suspense. -_-
yeah, I'm talking to you Mr. Grumpy face.

Done some more thinking about the Phantom and Don Juan, specifically the opera that Erik writes - "Don Juan Triumphant". I wonder if this has affected the relationship between them, since Erik obviously thoroughly knows about Don Juan's story and character...

In the very least, I think it's safe to assume that the younger characters know the older ones' stories, as newer fiction was written with older in mind (and as a part of humanity's collective information pool). I'm not sure if they introduced themselves when they met (for example, I wouldn't recognize Moriarty if I saw him in the street), but they may have guesses after reading our forum.

Apologies if this post has poor spelling etc, I'm a little drunk.

Guys, Mr. A just tweeted me back, re: Cindy's behind the wall again theory.

Link here: https://twitter.com/YouHaveFailedUs/sta ... 9155018752

Text here: @JoshuaColquhoun AN ANNOUNCEMENT WILL BE MADE REGARDING THIS THEORY IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

Speculate away folks. Whether the Cabal have anything to do with all this, I'm not sure, but it seems to me what was said earlier about Cindy working out how to zap herself back was right.

... And yes, that's my real Twitter, feel free to stalk.

I'm wondering if the 'they all lived happily ever after' was written by Cindy? Perhaps she wrote her way back home?

Holmes would probably know from the handwriting. Should we ask him, even though he's moved on to a new case?

That's true. Been a while since I read a Holmes story, but I do recall him being an expert in handwriting analysis. Worth a shot!

I nearly forgot! I had a thought that I couldn't write here for a while.
Pixelmage has summarized that, according to the Witch's model, we can't send the fictionals back with our technologies, which means there should be some outside intervention.

Have we considered Mr. Administrator being a part of this? (I mean, not in jest as we always do... )
Thought so. But it would make perfect sense:

1. He knows that Cinderella is alive and safe.
2. He is about to make some announcement about her.
3. Sending the fictites back is his goal.
4. He is always playing behind our backs.

Considering that he can't interact with reality, he needed someone to actually do the job - bring Cinderella, probably write the ending to send her to, and something else we may never know. Then Mr. A does his part of the job. Now, there are possible variants of the henchman he used:

1. Some random dude. Him being a good-looking guy with a beard could be a coincidence. In that case the whole event is Mr. A's job.
2. Don Juan, with the rest of the Cabal unaware of his shenanigans. He could do it due to some feelings to Cinderella, to test something, because he thought it would be right (he is not a Complete Monster, after all), because he found out that she's in danger, and her story is the only safe place for her. Most importantly, it would indicate that the Cabal has started to fall apart.
3. Don Juan, acting on Cabal's behalf. In that case we may refer to an older theory where the Cabal would try to stay permanently, and / or to send their rivals back.

If it was Cabal's doing, Mr. A could play along because he thought it would be more useful for us than it would be for them, or he needed a test subject as well. Also, it would be one hell of a twist.

Now, what remains are the identities of the riddle-sender and the investigator. I'm not really sure about them. I'll just leave my thoughts here for the hivemind to complete.

You make some excellent points.
The best way to verify this would be to get a hoverboard. Stand on our heads. Eat dinosaurs. By the DOZEN. Become spambots. Sing like nobody's listening (because chances are, nobody is). Play a game. Make lists. And more lists. Bibliomancy. Necromancy. Arithmetic. MAD SCIENCE. Anyone else think it's a strange coincidence that the real-life Hurricane Sandy is being referred to in newspapers as the "Frankenstorm"? The handwriting. The footwriting. Foot writing? Standing on our heads and spitting nickels. Brute force. Trial and error. Vigenere codes. Hula hoops. Dinosaur comics. Eating dinosaur comics. Writing textbooks. Reading textbooks. Refusing to buy textbooks because they're overpriced. That is all.

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:You make some excellent points.
The best way to verify this would be to get a hoverboard. Stand on our heads. Eat dinosaurs. By the DOZEN. Become spambots. Sing like nobody's listening (because chances are, nobody is). Play a game. Make lists. And more lists. Bibliomancy. Necromancy. Arithmetic. MAD SCIENCE. Anyone else think it's a strange coincidence that the real-life Hurricane Sandy is being referred to in newspapers as the "Frankenstorm"? The handwriting. The footwriting. Foot writing? Standing on our heads and spitting nickels. Brute force. Trial and error. Vigenere codes. Hula hoops. Dinosaur comics. Eating dinosaur comics. Writing textbooks. Reading textbooks. Refusing to buy textbooks because they're overpriced. That is all.

ok, time for Qara to go back to the coffee room.

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:You make some excellent points.
The best way to verify this would be to get a hoverboard. Stand on our heads. Eat dinosaurs. By the DOZEN. Become spambots. Sing like nobody's listening (because chances are, nobody is). Play a game. Make lists. And more lists. Bibliomancy. Necromancy. Arithmetic. MAD SCIENCE. Anyone else think it's a strange coincidence that the real-life Hurricane Sandy is being referred to in newspapers as the "Frankenstorm"? The handwriting. The footwriting. Foot writing? Standing on our heads and spitting nickels. Brute force. Trial and error. Vigenere codes. Hula hoops. Dinosaur comics. Eating dinosaur comics. Writing textbooks. Reading textbooks. Refusing to buy textbooks because they're overpriced. That is all.

I think maybe you need to lay off the caffeine, mate.

JackAlsworth wrote:

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:You make some excellent points.
The best way to verify this would be to get a hoverboard. Stand on our heads. Eat dinosaurs. By the DOZEN. Become spambots. Sing like nobody's listening (because chances are, nobody is). Play a game. Make lists. And more lists. Bibliomancy. Necromancy. Arithmetic. MAD SCIENCE. Anyone else think it's a strange coincidence that the real-life Hurricane Sandy is being referred to in newspapers as the "Frankenstorm"? The handwriting. The footwriting. Foot writing? Standing on our heads and spitting nickels. Brute force. Trial and error. Vigenere codes. Hula hoops. Dinosaur comics. Eating dinosaur comics. Writing textbooks. Reading textbooks. Refusing to buy textbooks because they're overpriced. That is all.

I think maybe you need to lay off the caffeine, mate.

WAYYYY too much Tinfoil now. And you are banned on coffee for a week or two. You have to drink Lime Juice instead.

The Wild West Pyro wrote:

JackAlsworth wrote:

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:You make some excellent points.
The best way to verify this would be to get a hoverboard. Stand on our heads. Eat dinosaurs. By the DOZEN. Become spambots. Sing like nobody's listening (because chances are, nobody is). Play a game. Make lists. And more lists. Bibliomancy. Necromancy. Arithmetic. MAD SCIENCE. Anyone else think it's a strange coincidence that the real-life Hurricane Sandy is being referred to in newspapers as the "Frankenstorm"? The handwriting. The footwriting. Foot writing? Standing on our heads and spitting nickels. Brute force. Trial and error. Vigenere codes. Hula hoops. Dinosaur comics. Eating dinosaur comics. Writing textbooks. Reading textbooks. Refusing to buy textbooks because they're overpriced. That is all.

I think maybe you need to lay off the caffeine, mate.

WAYYYY too much Tinfoil now. And you are banned on coffee for a week or two. You have to drink Lime Juice instead.

ewww. you can never have too much tinfoil.

Guys, I saw the recent Cabal chats. Where's all the discussion and speculation? Did I miss something?