Erik's Email

"If you leave us in peace, we will do you no harm. If you wish to join us, we will set a chair at our table and work to our mutual benefit. If you work against us, we will have no choice but to retaliate."

[RIP Morgan, Erik, and Juan 26 Dec 2012]
[Moriarty refictionalized 16 Dec 2012]

Re: Erik's Email

Postby Sicon112 on Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:45 pm

You know, I just remembered a quote that sums up this situation nicely which Mimsy just pointed out that I inadvertently paraphrased.

The Director wrote:I feel I must remind you that it is an undeniable, and may I say a fundamental quality of man, that when faced with extinction, every alternative is preferable.
Normal people are the easiest to manipulate. Too smart and they have an annoying tendency to catch wind of your plans, too dumb and, in the words of a certain pirate, "You can never tell when they are about to do something incredibly...stupid."
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby JRPictures on Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:48 pm

Sicon112 wrote:You know, I just remembered a quote that sums up this situation nicely which Mimsy just pointed out that I inadvertently paraphrased.

The Director wrote:I feel I must remind you that it is undeniable, and may I say a fundamental quality of man, that when faced with extinction, every alternative is preferable.

So true...so true. Brilliant. BRAVE BRAVO :gurt: :gurt: 8-) 8-)
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:50 pm

Okay, the first thing that's obvious to me is that this is just the next stage of the Cabal's offensive-- they're manipulating us emotionally.

Now, most of the argument I was planning to make has already been said more eloquently by Sicon, so I'll just add/reiterate the following points (the first is a repeat, the second repeats and adds, the third is the most important point that nobody's made yet):

  • 1. We're risking more lives by letting them stay, when it might destroy reality, than by sending them back, when it might doom them.
  • 2. There is no reason to think they have more freedom in this world, as it may be equally fiction to their worlds of origin-- in fact, on a meta-level, we know that they have equally no freedom here, because they're being controlled by the GMs.
  • 3. Regardless of points 1 and 2, there's an obvious solution that they can't argue with on those grounds. Refictionalization is an open contest, and Erik's and Adam's plays prove that the fictionals can create fiction in this world. So why don't we just let them write their own refictionalization stories? In fact, provided they agree to abide by the very sparse parameters Mr. A provided, we could even suggest that if they let us know they'll be doing so, no one else will enter, to ensure that theirs is the story that gets elevated to canon.
    If they reject this suggestion (which, on a meta-level, they'll have to), then they're not just desperately seeking the ability to write their own stories; they're being unreasonable, and we can revert to not sympathizing with them.
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Tohrinha on Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:52 pm

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:So why don't we just let them write their own refictionalization stories?

This is a very good idea. We need a fictional to test it on.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby JRPictures on Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:53 pm

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:Okay, the first thing that's obvious to me is that this is just the next stage of the Cabal's offensive-- they're manipulating us emotionally.

Now, most of the argument I was planning to make has already been said more eloquently by Sicon, so I'll just add/reiterate the following points (the first is a repeat, the second repeats and adds, the third is the most important point that nobody's made yet):

  • 1. We're risking more lives by letting them stay, when it might destroy reality, than by sending them back, when it might doom them.
  • 2. There is no reason to think they have more freedom in this world, as it may be equally fiction to their worlds of origin-- in fact, on a meta-level, we know that they have equally no freedom here, because they're being controlled by the GMs.
  • 3. Regardless of points 1 and 2, there's an obvious solution that they can't argue with on those grounds. Refictionalization is an open contest, and Erik's and Adam's plays prove that the fictionals can create fiction in this world. So why don't we just let them write their own refictionalization stories? In fact, provided they agree to abide by the very sparse parameters Mr. A provided, we could even suggest that if they let us know they'll be doing so, no one else will enter, to ensure that theirs is the story that gets elevated to canon.
    If they reject this suggestion (which, on a meta-level, they'll have to), then they're not just desperately seeking the ability to write their own stories; they're being unreasonable, and we can revert to not sympathizing with them.



@Point 3:

Holy Cr*p why Haven't I thought of that?

That could actually work if they wrote their own stories. My god this just gets better and better.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby S_o_S on Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:54 pm

The obvious choice is Adam, since he's already demonstrated his writing ability.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Sicon112 on Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:54 pm

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:Okay, the first thing that's obvious to me is that this is just the next stage of the Cabal's offensive-- they're manipulating us emotionally.

Now, most of the argument I was planning to make has already been said more eloquently by Sicon, so I'll just add/reiterate the following points (the first is a repeat, the second repeats and adds, the third is the most important point that nobody's made yet):

  • 1. We're risking more lives by letting them stay, when it might destroy reality, than by sending them back, when it might doom them.
  • 2. There is no reason to think they have more freedom in this world, as it may be equally fiction to their worlds of origin-- in fact, on a meta-level, we know that they have equally no freedom here, because they're being controlled by the GMs.
  • 3. Regardless of points 1 and 2, there's an obvious solution that they can't argue with on those grounds. Refictionalization is an open contest, and Erik's and Adam's plays prove that the fictionals can create fiction in this world. So why don't we just let them write their own refictionalization stories? In fact, provided they agree to abide by the very sparse parameters Mr. A provided, we could even suggest that if they let us know they'll be doing so, no one else will enter, to ensure that theirs is the story that gets elevated to canon.
    If they reject this suggestion (which, on a meta-level, they'll have to), then they're not just desperately seeking the ability to write their own stories; they're being unreasonable, and we can revert to not sympathizing with them.


I've already considered point three, but I haven't mentioned it because there are issues with it.The issue is, I'm not sure whether they CAN write their own stories or not. They come from a layer down, so their fiction might appear on the SECOND fictional layer instead of ours, despite the fact that they are on this plane. Hell, that could be part of the reason reality is collapsing.

In any case, this is one more thing to add to the list of things to drag out of Mr. A by whatever means necessary. This is the fate of the world in the balance. The same arguments that can be made for forcing the fictionals back can be made for dragging out what we MUST know from Mr. A.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Tohrinha on Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:03 pm

Sicon112 wrote:The issue is, I'm not sure whether they CAN write their own stories or not. They come from a layer down, so their fiction might appear on the SECOND fictional layer instead of ours, despite the fact that they are on this plane. Hell, that could be part of the reason reality is collapsing.

Hence why we need experimentation.
If they are already breaking the wall further by creating fiction, it won't hurt to turn one of their creative efforts into data for us.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Sicon112 on Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:06 pm

Tohrinha wrote:
Sicon112 wrote:The issue is, I'm not sure whether they CAN write their own stories or not. They come from a layer down, so their fiction might appear on the SECOND fictional layer instead of ours, despite the fact that they are on this plane. Hell, that could be part of the reason reality is collapsing.

Hence why we need experimentation.
If they are already breaking the wall further by creating fiction, it won't hurt to turn one of their creative efforts into data for us.


Indeed. We may try. However, I don't think it is possible until we reach a more...open state of communication.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Tohrinha on Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:08 pm

Sicon112 wrote:Indeed. We may try. However, I don't think it is possible until we reach a more...open state of communication.

Are we at that point with any of the friendlier fictionals? If we are, and they agree to try, that would help us in our efforts with the less amiable ones.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Sicon112 on Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:17 pm

Tohrinha wrote:
Sicon112 wrote:Indeed. We may try. However, I don't think it is possible until we reach a more...open state of communication.

Are we at that point with any of the friendlier fictionals? If we are, and they agree to try, that would help us in our efforts with the less amiable ones.


The best of our current choices is the Witch. She hasn't said anything in a while, but perhaps it is time for Scarab to be in contact with her again.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby S_o_S on Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:18 pm

If that's true, we need to wait until tomorrow then.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Dryunya on Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:53 pm

Thread hop:
I think we'll need a separate thread to compile public letters to Erik. I haven't been catching up yet, and I'll need about 2.5 hrs for it (1.5 of which will be dedicated to RL). I already have my opinion formed, and I don't think I'm about to change it, but I'll see what you guys came up with.

If anything, Erik started a dialogue. That's a start. If there's anyone of them I'd discuss the situation with, it's him.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:53 pm

I'd much rather they throw something solid at me than all these psychological attacks; they're clearly getting to some of us on an emotional level.
I've given even MORE thought to my Point 3 (see above) and, while I don't want to go into all the details yet (it's very meta, and if the GMs see it before I put the plan into action, they'll both kill me and prevent it from working), but I'm going to make a separate "Open Letter to Erik and other interested fictionals" thread soon, putting my plan into action.
Anyone who wants to stop me or to get more info on the plan first can find me in the chatroom, where I'll probably sit on it for another half hour or so before making my next move.

I'm starting this thread, and if it goes south, or gets the GMs fighting mad, I take full responsibility. (As I said in the OT Holmes vs. Hulk thread, it's a bad idea to tick off the GMs-- so I don't want anyone else getting burned on this one.)

Edit: Anyone who wants to know all the possible outcomes from my plan/ what EXACTLY my plan is, ask me or Pixel in a PRIVATE CHAT WINDOW.
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Dryunya on Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:21 am

All right, now is my turn for a Wall Of Text. I've been whining to no end in the chat room that all my points have been mentioned, but I can't be silent on a matter like this.

The following is my official response to Erik's letter.

Hello, Erik.
I'm very glad you've finally made an effort to initiate a conversation. I hope we can find a mutually accepted solution to our problem. However, my response to your letter the way it is now may be found harsh, or even hostile. By no means treat it as such. I'm merely operating by logic.

Laconic: You appeal to emotions // Your argument is invalid.

Elaboration:
  1. You consider our solution to write you acceptable stories unacceptable on the basis that it will take away your free will.
    It will not. Your free will will be provided by the open-ended ending. From there, infinite possible outcomes are possible, with or without follow-up fiction. For all we know, that should suffice. And we do know - our model of the metaverse has been polished by facts.
  2. You think that you have free will in this world.
    Depending on my point of view, you either don't, or it is debatable. There are 2 points of view I can speak from:
    1. Yours: You are currently present in our physical world, on the top layer, and therefore have free will.
      I'm going to ask you a question: can you prove it?
      You can't. With hundreds and thousand of years of scientific progress, the existence of free will has not yet been proven (as well as disproven). Regarding the top layer of reality... Don't think we haven't been doing our own research on the matter. We are Metaguards. Knowing the metaverse is our obligation. And even now, we only assume being on top just because it is impossible for us to look higher. Even having "broke free", you can't be sure you are not fictional anymore.
    2. Ours. This one may be harder for you to accept. As I said, we are Metaguards. Much of our knowledge was logically derived from a simple fact that is obvious for us, not so much for you: you are on the second layer of reality, not the first. Observing from the first level is what we call "going meta", and we like doing that. :gurt: From that standpoint, your lack of free will is obvious. In those circumstances, our alternative will, in fact, be an improvement.
  3. You're asking us not to trust Mr. Administrator.
    We don't (no offense, Mr. A ;) ). He is having trouble being honest even when he tries, and currently, he isn't probably trying. However, he does possess knowledge and skills we don't, and is the only one capable of sealing the fourth wall. Leaving the wall the way it is will inevitably doom our world with the advent of more evil creatures, culminating with Lovecraftean horrors and whatnot. Even the fictional Metaguards we created won't be able to hold off the infinite evils of human imagination. You can't argue with that. Ergo, we need to stick with him at least to some extent.
  4. You ask us whether we are ready to send you back to "prison" even if we are not certain that not doing so will doom our reality.
    Of course we are. Doing otherwise is illogical. You may be familiar with Pascal's Gambit - if you're not, here it is. To keep it short: the price of mistake is infinitely high. We can't afford that. Mind you, the destruction of this world will spell doom for you just as well.
  5. You say that Mr. A has no evidence to back his claims.
    He doesn't have direct evidence. We have, however, observed multiple phenomena that confirm our worries that your presence has an effect on reality. Those effects may be harbringers of impending metaversal collapse. As I said, we can't take any chances.

That said, I'm more than willing to leave some of you here if we find definite proof that it will not harm the metaverse. Some stems from the moral implications. Your claim that your settings molded all of you into what you are is understandable. However, it does not make you Carma Houdinis. I'm willing to give all of you a second chance, but... let's just say that I agree with Sicon's cause-and-effect claim.

However, for the sake of simplicity I'll leave the moral repercussions of leaving you in our world for when we shall actually be able to do that.

Now, I propose the following course of action:
  1. We go on with our plans for refictionalization for those characters who agree to this. You can't argue that some of them are unhappy here, and our alternative is indeed the better one for them.
  2. Meanwhile, we keep trying to find evidence to support either side - either Mr. A's or yours.
  3. So do you.
    This is my main condition. If you want to find a mutually accepted solution, join us and help us find it. As fictional characters, you can be ... I wouldn't say "test subjects", but I can't come up with a better term for now. We promise not to perform any experiments that may be dangerous to you. We lack information, and we need your help to get it.

Now, some implication of my last condition. Please don't treat it as a threat, as I'm only stating your current situation.
Your fate is now entirely in our hands. We have the means to send you back, and we do not require your consent. Therefore, finding the solution that is acceptable for you is not our obligation. Your current activities are counter-productive, and don't put you in the best light. Therefore, I ask you to stop trying to recruit other characters. It is fruitless, but is still a hostile action. You must demonstrate your will to cooperate.
That also means that you must leave Joe alone and let him come back home. I think every single metaguard on the forum will agree if I call it a necessary condition.
If you don't comply and don't cease hostilities, we won't hesitate either. We have nothing to actually gain from leaving you here, and we're now doing you a favor. You have to understand that.

I may sound harsh, but I'm open to discussion. My forum invitation is still valid.

P. S. I you disagree with my letter personally, I must ask you to show it to your compatriots, especially Moriarty. If he can't listen to logic, I don't know who can.
P. P. S. Even though I said it with a condition of "if they are guilty", I'd still like to apologize for my "gag on their entrails" demand I made after Tara's death. We all were deeply disturbed by that event. (I'm not saying I consider all of you innocent, as we still haven't proven it.)
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:38 am

I said it in the chatroom, but I will say it again for all to see.

LET ME BE YOUR PADAWAN, Dryu. That entire post was made of awesomeness and brilliance and perfectness and I'm making up words.

Also, you've earned this: :gurt: :gurt: :gurt: :gurt: :gurt:
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Scarab on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:02 am

I'd... like to join the Walls of Text, if I may. This was... actually surprisingly difficult to write. I think I need to go to the coffee room and pretend I'm chugging something strong and green, again (oh but if only that actually worked in real life... :cry:) Still, here it is: my letter.

Dear Erik,

To begin, I would like to say thank you. You came to us and spoke to us as human beings, believing us both rational and capable of understanding an emotional plea. I hope this is the beginning of many further talks. I know there’s a pretty good chance you’re just trying to appeal to our emotions but you still make relevant points.

This whole thing has bothered a great many of us for a while. We do not relish the idea of causing suffering to any of you. On the contrary we are very fond of the fictionals who came through. That's arguably why they had the strength to come through in the first place. The Wicked Witch might be... well, wicked, but I’d be lying if I said she was a thoughtless employer. Adam is kind, noble, and talented, easily deserving of accolades. Sherlock Holmes and Poirot have actually saved lives while here, something their own writers could never have hoped for. And then of course there’s Morgana, and Moriarty, who love each other...

I'm glad you have acknowledged that we do NOT relish the idea of taking that away from you. We do not relish the idea of sending Romeo and Juliet to die, or Adam back into a place where he is called A Monster. The very idea of it hurts like a hole in the head. My brain is constantly at war between my inner writer, and my humanity. But right now, I’m doing something that I, again, have always had to struggle with: confronting my moral, personal desires with logic. It’s really hard. Please be patient with me. I’m not a naturally logical person. I think with my heart, first and I don't always think things through enough before I do them. You could call me Sicon’s opposite number in a way, although I'm very fond of him, and it seems we often come to similar conclusions anyway. Go figure.

I don’t wish to repeat anything that other letters have already said. I would like to mention that I take similar attitudes to Dryunya with regards to your attitude towards this world being the ultimate reality, and any world we created for you being a prison: in short you don't know that. And similar attitudes to Sicon with regards to your lines ‘would you condemn so many on an uncertainty?’ – If you are wrong and your existence here does harm our world, then you are condemning far more than we would be. That’s the ultimate equation in all this. Can you honestly ask us to risk our entire world based on your desires and word alone? Would you kill an entire country just to save a single child, even if you werent 100% sure it would make a difference? Perhaps you would, if it was your child... but we can’t do that, sir :( . I’m genuinely sorry, but we can’t. We just can’t take the risk. Mister A probably knows that, of course... now all we can hope for is his honesty.

However this is also where you have your most valid point: we DO require proof from Mister A that the damage he claims is occurring IS occurring. If it were not the case... I would oh so happily let all of you stay, and admittedly not entirely for unselfish reasons. I want to see Adam’s play on stage. I want Sherlock and Poirot to be able to solve their crimes and improve peoples lives regardless of where they are, I want Romeo to grow up and figure out what this love thing is really about. I want Juliet to go home, as she wishes, and become a painter and, more importantly, I want all of them to live. Because regardless of how they began, as stories or otherwise, you are alive. You always were. That's the power of fiction, that's what draws people to stories in the first place - they show us another world, where anything is possible.

I also draw attention to your line: It is not our character, but our context that defines who we are.

...This is true to an extent. After all, to use an extreme hypothetical example, if you have a woman who murders her child because she hates being a parent and wants her social life back, she is obviously far more morally questionable and deserving of punishment, than a woman who kills her child during a terrible famine where it is going to starve anyway, and her religious orientation means that she believes he will be reincarnated and returned to her in better times (I got that idea from a book). The latter could strike as just as evil, or at least as ridiculous, but the moral centre of the woman completely changes the context. This is true.

But your idea is still flawed. It is NOT just your context that defines who you are, Erik. It is what you DO with your context. Who you were or are now does not change our dilemma.

You have admitted that you and the Cabal made mistakes since you got here. So have we. We made assumptions based on what little we knew, but OUR assumptions of your guilt were spawned FROM your actions here in the real world, not what you did in a book. Your actions have consequences. That does not change just because you are no longer being penned on paper. If you can stay will you be willing to take responsibility for those letters? Responsibility for any less than positive acts you have done?

I am sorry your life was as hard as it was. Perhaps that was because your original writer wished to create a specific horror for which your existence was the price, or perhaps you already WERE in existence, and your writer merely channelled your being into their fiction via some kind of... natural, almost psychic ability, the thing that you and we alike would call ‘inspiration’ (in which case your point about being controlled in that world may also be flawed –it all depends on which way the power was flowing and we cannot know the source of your writer's inspiration anymore than you). But you likewise cannot hide from your responsibilities. Too many people in our past have used, for example ‘the devil told me to do it’ or ‘I was coerced by my employers’ or ‘I was just doing my job’ as an excuse for their crimes.

However it is not strictly that which motivates us now so much as the fact that we still have no choice. This has already been mentioned to you by others. We have no proof either way of Mister A’s trustworthiness. There is only one thing which has changed in your transferrence between your world and ours - in that world you were a villain, albeit a sympathetic one. Here, you are just another man. From black and white, to grey and slightly darker grey.

We ask then, that you try to provide us with proof – evidence that you are not damaging the world. I admit I am aware that this is a very difficult for you to do, perhaps impossible and I'm sorry to ask it of you, but again: what else do you expect us to do? Likewise we will question Mister A for proof of his own. In the meantime... perhaps, if the others are willing, we CAN adjust our current methods. We already wish to open dialogues with you guys. We can request that those who WISH to return home be sent back first by our refictionalisation efforts. This alone should buy both us and you some time.

There are words I read once in a book written by a man whose stories have always been very important to me, and those words have remained with me ever since.

1. This is not a game.
2. Here and now, you are alive.


We are not just playing a game here, sir. I’m sorry. I really do hope you can provide the proof of what you claim. We are grateful for this attempt at communication and perhaps it’s not too late for either side?

Sincerely,
Scarab


Damn it, that was hard. ...How'd I do, guys?
Last edited by Scarab on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby H22 on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:59 am

I think the email is excellent. (I'm fairly sure it's MorganA, but....). I feel so morally torn on this, and I hope negotiations open and are successful.
It kind of is a game, but I understand that's not your point...
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:02 am

Oh, Scarab.
I love the Pratchett references, and you have written a very eloquent wall of text.
Maybe you should copy it to the open letter thread? Even if I'm afraid it's somewhat at cross-purposes with my suggestion.
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Erik's Email

Postby narrativedilettante on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:15 am

Scarab, that letter is amazing.

I could write a wall of text myself, but it would be redundant. Every point I have to make has already been eloquently expressed by someone here.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Scarab on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:49 am

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:Oh, Scarab.
I love the Pratchett references, and you have written a very eloquent wall of text.
Maybe you should copy it to the open letter thread? Even if I'm afraid it's somewhat at cross-purposes with my suggestion.


Thanks a lot... (Pratchett always seems to have the right words when I can't find them myself).
I don't think it really contradicts you idea. I really like your plan of possibly letting them write their own fiction. It would have to be within the boundaries of realism, but it's certainly giving them back a little of the control all of this would deny them.

narrativedilettante wrote:Scarab, that letter is amazing.
I could write a wall of text myself, but it would be redundant. Every point I have to make has already been eloquently expressed by someone here.

Thanks... we would still like to see your words too. Every letter is relevant and you probably do have different ideas to us, in several ways. Some of what I was thinking didn't become clear to me until I started writing this.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Genndy Oda C.O.G. on Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:09 pm

Well, let's hope this works.
Apparently, slightly less weird than most of you.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby narrativedilettante on Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:25 am

By popular demand (popular demand being Scarab suggesting I post my words too) here is my response to Erik's letter.

Dear Erik,

Thank you for contacting us. We metaguards have been hoping for an open, honest dialog for some time. Most of the animosity between ourselves and the Cabal stems from a lack of clear communication. We understand how badly things could turn out if we don’t speak openly. As we say, Poor Communication Kills.

I will treat your letter as an honest representation of your position until I have compelling evidence to believe that it is not. Some, including Mr. Administrator, have expressed the opinion that you are merely attempting to emotionally manipulate us. I don’t think that’s necessarily true. The letter touched me emotionally, to be sure, but I would not have felt an emotional response if the things you said felt untrue to my logical side. I am cautious in my trust, and I will continue to reevaluate my opinion on you as new information becomes available, but for the meantime, I will act as though you are being truthful to the best of your knowledge.

I’m sympathetic to your position. I understand why you wish to remain in this world. Though we intend to make refictionalizations as pleasant as possible, you claim to view any return to a fictional existence to be equivalent to imprisonment, and that’s a viewpoint I can appreciate. If you and other fictionals can stay in this reality without any negative effects, I’m all for it.

However, I disagree with your assessment of the risks involved. You believe it is wrong to remove fictional beings from this reality when the prospect of damage is uncertain. But if there is damage to our reality as a result of your presence, then we are all in danger. Billions of people could die. If I had to unjustly imprison a handful of individuals to save the human race, I wouldn’t hesitate. Of course, we don’t know for certain that there is any danger from your presence here. But the risk if we let you stay vastly outweighs the risk if we send you home.

I would love to find an alternative, a solution that would allow you to live here and be free as you desire. Currently, though, the safest plan looks to be sending you home. I will wait as long as I can for new information before I start to move forward with sending anyone back who doesn’t want to go, but given a lack of concrete evidence either way, I will definitely send you home. I don’t enjoy thinking about that prospect. If you cooperate, I hope we can together determine the most equitable solution so that your new fictional home is the best possible one for you.

Before you reject the idea of cooperating with your refictionalization, let me remind you that if this reality falls apart, you will die too. No one is safe from the potential problems that may emerge from this situation.

You express distrust for Mr. Administrator. Nearly all of us have expressed similar feelings about him. We don’t know what his motives are, and he is deliberately vague and uncomfortably ominous. Now, I have a question for you. Do you know of any ulterior motives or other reasons not to trust Mr. Administrator? I want to make the most informed decisions possible, and if you’re aware of something about Mr. Administrator that hasn’t become clear to the rest of us, I’d like to make use of that information. If you are merely expressing distrust based on the same information about Mr. Administrator that the rest of us have, then I understand why you’d feel that way, but I will continue to use my own judgement in regard to his instructions.

So far, I’ve treated Mr. Administrator with the same sort of trust and caution with which I treat you. For the meantime, I believe working with him is the safest option. I may revise that opinion as new information comes to light.

I also want to make a request of you. My fellow metaguards and I are in the process of refictionalizing Sweeney Todd. Please do not treat this as an aggressive act. Mr. Todd wishes to return to his time and place. We can reunite him with his wife and give him a happy ending, and he has clearly stated that this is his desire. There are some fictionals who do not want to stay here. Please allow them to leave without interference. And understand that just because we are sending them home, that does not mean we will send everyone else home, too. We are looking for other options.

I understand that you and the rest of the Cabal have made plans to convince other fictionals to stay, as well. Please do not manipulate them into agreeing with your position. If a fictional person wants to go home, it is unreasonable to attempt to prevent that. Everyone should make the most informed decision possible, so I do not wish to prevent you or anyone else from communicating with any other fictionals. But please refrain from lies or other manipulations. Let people make their own conclusions, and respect their decisions. If you don’t respect another’s desire to leave, then we have very little motivation to respect your desire to stay.

As things currently stand, I believe we will need to refictionalize every one of the characters who has crossed over. If I have to send someone back against their will, it will sit very badly with my conscience, but I believe it is what must be done. However, I’m keeping an open mind. Thank you for contacting us in good faith. I hope we can come to a solution that is amenable to everyone.

It was damn brave of you to write that letter. I hope it will do some good for you and all of us. At the very least, we can start talking like civilized people and stop sneaking around trying to sabotage one another.

Sincerely,
narrativedilettante
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby NeverSlender on Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:27 pm

Can't sleep, got bored, had a look at the timeline and saw about this letter. It intrigued me. I've had a skim through the thread but the only post I read in full was Sicon's wall of text, because hey, regardless of the content he at least put in the effort to write it. So if anything I say has been covered already, I'll try my best to care but don't get your hopes up. Now for my point of view. Just gonna say, I am gonna take an interest in the endgame of the ARG but I am no longer a full player. Because of this, and the fact I won't be staying around to really discuss things, I would understand if you thought my opinion doesn't really matter. Now, to buisness.

If he is telling the truth and not trying to bullshit us, I would be on Erik's side. I understand that Administrator says there is a threat to reality, but I will take that out of the equation until the end of this, as I have a response to that.

All of the fictionals that have come though were written. The writers didn't just dictate the laws of the world that the characters inhabited but the laws of the characters themselves. A character may be a murderer, but only because he was written that way. He had no say in the matter. In this world they would have. If Sweeney Todd returns, he WILL commit more murders. If he stays here, he may also commit murders, but he can choose not to, a choice he cannot make in his story. Frankenstein's monster can live without persecution. He cannot in his own story. These are just two examples. Even Moriarty may change, and if he doesn't, then is he to blame, or the writer who created his personality? I do not believe in a god and I do not believe this is another layer of fiction. This is the real world, and my actions and the actions of the fictionals are their own. They are not predetermined. So if they wish to stay then they should be allowed to be here and to make their own choices. If it was you, ANY of you, don't try and bullshit people by saying you wouldn't want the chance write your own story instead of being a slave to someones imagination. You would want to make your own choices and live your own way. Because whoever you are, whatever it may have been written that you had done, it's gone. You could start again and live your life your way. You could make your own happy ending.

Now for the danger to reality. This is a meta response.

Because of the fact that there may be a split, it is entirely possible that the ARG would end with characters still here. Then what? The GMs post a video or a forum topic saying "And then there was an apocalypse. The end". Nah. It's way beyond the budget. They have to have a plan b in case that happened. So the threat to reality is a load of bollocks. As for the echoes, they can't be detected by humans, only by layar. They are just there. They have no negative effect. They prove nothing.

Now, I bid you all goodnight.
Marching on together.
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Re: Erik's Email

Postby Sicon112 on Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:41 pm

NeverSlender wrote:All of the fictionals that have come though were written. The writers didn't just dictate the laws of the world that the characters inhabited but the laws of the characters themselves. A character may be a murderer, but only because he was written that way. He had no say in the matter. In this world they would have. If Sweeney Todd returns, he WILL commit more murders. If he stays here, he may also commit murders, but he can choose not to, a choice he cannot make in his story. Frankenstein's monster can live without persecution. He cannot in his own story. These are just two examples. Even Moriarty may change, and if he doesn't, then is he to blame, or the writer who created his personality? I do not believe in a god and I do not believe this is anothwr layer of fiction. This is the real world, and my actions and the actions of the fictionals are their own. They are not predetermined. So if they wish to stay then they should be allowed to be here and to make their own choices. If it was you, ANY of you, don't try and bullshit people by saying you wouldn't want the chance write your own story instead of being a slave to someones imagination. You would want to make your own choices and live your own way. Because whoever you are, whatever it may have been written that you had done, it's gone. You could start again and live your life your way. You could make your own happy ending.


This is exactly the opposite of what I've been trying to say. Look, if you read my post, why is this being brought up? If your argument was valid, characterization would mean literally NOTHING. That isn't how a real story works, slendy. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this argument is nonsense.

Sweeny murdered people because, at heart, he was a person who was willing to DO that, under enough pressure. Sweeny has a character, and that is WHO HE IS. It doesn't matter which world he is in, he is still someone who would kill under pressure. People can change, I get that. Maybe, after he has made friends here and seen this world, he ISN'T that man anymore. However, he killed in his story because the Sweeny of that moment was WILLING to kill. What, do you think an author just rolls dice or something o figure out what happens next? Of course not! Everyone is who they are. As Scarab said, it isn't the situation that makes the person, it is how they respond. To send Sweeny home, we would send back a Sweeny with the experience, the HOPE of this world. That Sweeny would be a Sweeny who could uncover the heart of Ben Barker again. He may not, but it will be his choice that determines that. He will be who he is. If he is changed, then he will have hope. If he isn't, then he falls prey to the same fate. That is a test of his own character.

You say Adam cannot live without persecution in his own story, but you fail to consider that we are not sending back the same Adam that came out of that world, and we are not sending him back to even the same world! We would send him to a place where he had a chance! Where he could actually REACH happiness, if he chooses the right path. Then, it is merely up to his character to act.

You ask who would be to blame if a character such as Moriarty does not change. The answer: Moriarty himself. There is always a chance for change, at every point along the path. If one fails to change, there is no one else to blame. Moriarty from the stories did what he did for characterized reasons that he found worth the evil. The author created him, certainly, but Moriarty's character is what it is, and now he stands in reality along with us. To blame any misdeeds on others is as foolish as blaming a a murderers crimes on child abusing parents. Perhaps they affected him, but he choose his own path.

(And as to the last part, stay in game, please.)
Normal people are the easiest to manipulate. Too smart and they have an annoying tendency to catch wind of your plans, too dumb and, in the words of a certain pirate, "You can never tell when they are about to do something incredibly...stupid."
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