Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

"If you leave us in peace, we will do you no harm. If you wish to join us, we will set a chair at our table and work to our mutual benefit. If you work against us, we will have no choice but to retaliate."

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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby S_o_S on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:42 am

Having mulled it over, I've come to a definite conclusion - I pretty much agree with everything Qara has said already. However, I wish to propose an experiment.

We go after one, and exactly one piece of the wall. Let's see what happens if we try to go after one. If the Cabal seize it, fine, we won't go after the others. But if we can protect it, then we retain the ability to send any of them back at any time. In short, we get a bargaining chip. We can proceed from there.
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Pixelmage on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:43 am

Just so it does not feel like I'm going behind everyone's backs. I tweeted the Cat asking for his thoughts as well. After all, he's led us to the next step more often than Ed and Mr. A combined.

I'm not sure if or when he'll reply, as he might not. But as we're compiling opinions, I thought it was worthwhile to at least ask.
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Scarab on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:52 am

S_o_S wrote:Having mulled it over, I've come to a definite conclusion - I pretty much agree with everything Qara has said already. However, I wish to propose an experiment.

We go after one, and exactly one piece of the wall. Let's see what happens if we try to go after one. If the Cabal seize it, fine, we won't go after the others. But if we can protect it, then we retain the ability to send any of them back at any time. In short, we get a bargaining chip. We can proceed from there.


This is a good possible idea and is something like what I have been thinking - the one piece can be an experiment. What happens after we find it, and how the cabal respond, may tell us a great deal about their intentions, as well as meaning that we're making some effort towards repairing the damage to the wall (and there IS damage to it and there are guaranteed too be consequences at some point, even if we don't know right now what they are) without completely forcing us down a single path of action.

There's really no safe option here at all, guys, and all we can do is trust is each other.
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby H22 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:07 pm

I completely agree with Ed, I'm afraid [Semi-Wall of Text].
    1) Morgan wants to come to the table. Mr. A seems to want nothing less. 2) Morgan has promised a means of communication and she answered all your questions frankly, honestly, and openly. 3) If we told Morgana of our 'proof' Moriarty is a murderer, she would laugh in our faces. It is not even circumstantial. What do we know? Someone gave someone a location where someone was murdered. Then two random people played a game of chess. Obviously, he did it, but there is no way she will buy our, still basically implausible, story. 4) Some anti-Caballists have suggested I'm approaching it the wrong way - that it is a war or an experiment rather than a prosecution. Clearly, the accusations of murder change this. I repeat: We must have process and we must have proof. This offer for communication can only help with regard to the former. The latter requires Mr. A to prove their presence damages reality.) Qara: I utterly fail to see how the Cabal could humanly have plotted to exclude you. That brings paranoia to a whole new level. They missed me, a relatively pro-C figure, by around 45 minutes. Were they plotting 3 hours in advance RPGs exclude you, Si and Dryu? No. 6) I agree. We should bring Joe in. I mean, whatever you think of the C, they did threaten him. 7) Until further instruction, we probably should refrain from undertaking to retrieve the wall pieces. If we don't Know who to give them to, then we might as well not bother. 'What rubbish have you been putting in the garage THIS TIME?!?!?!' 'Oh, sorry, it's just a piece if the fourth wall. I'll move it later.' 7) Why do the Agents and Mr. A communicate by Layar? We know he has Twitter, email, wifi and so on. There are 3 potential reasons for this: I) She is lying. I can't say I could see why. II) Mr. A's inbox is so full with emails saying 'We have discovered you are owed $2303.48 from your accident. For the money, text back 'I'M AN IDIOT' with your card details, name, PIN, card number and cash withdrawal limit.' III) They are emailed but the C has hacked into the Layar and the contact and is planting the letters themselves. 8) The experiment could well be a good idea. In frankness, I think we are beyond science by now, but as a bargaining chip it could well be a good idea. 9) To continue with the logical fallacy party, tu quoque. Just because they did bad things in their stories and when they came here does not mean they should never, ever be trusted.
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Krika on Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:55 pm

Out of curiousity, what's Joe's opinion on this? Given what the Cabal has done to him, I would think he'd have some sort of opinion to give on the matter. Can someone ask him to see about posting? I, for one, am curious to see where he lands.
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:55 pm

Well, I've said my bit already. I'll only add that I'm hoping Joe will come to weigh in soon, as this does seem to directly concern him-- whether or not we begin taking orders from the people who drove him out of his home in the first place.

Oh, and H-- my complaint about the timing was a joke. I'm annoyed, but I don't really think it was deliberate.
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:30 pm

I'm looking into the validity of the Cabal's claims. They do have a valid theory this time, but it is only as valid as Mr. A's at most. I do not understand why people are acting as though A is outright avoiding questions and such. Every action he has taken is perfectly understandable to me, as I view the matter in a pragmatic and detached light. I am really not sure as to why people are saying he is being mysterious or something. To me he is making perfect sense, and I would probably act no different in his place. All evidence points to him at least doing what he can to work with us as best he can, given his impairment of understanding. He isn't omniscient, and he has pointed this out before. Even with infinite instantiations, he can only do so much due to processing bottlenecks. He has said this himself, on his Twitter, for all the world to see. This is not to say I TRUST him, only that I understand him. Since I understand exactly how he is going about things, which is remarkably similar to my own MO, I know well enough not to trust him. However, I can at least be certain, within a reasonable margin of error, that he will continue acting in the same way he has been, and therefore I can predict him, more or less.

tl;dr, Mr. A appears to be doing everything he can to do what he believes is the best thing he can do in this situation, and he will probably keep doing so. Your accusations of unpredictability and dishonesty make no sense to me.

I am not saying I take any side at the moment, however. I am merely collecting information. I suggest that we all do so. Also, I think if you must recover one of the letters, I think the best thing to do would be to remove location information from it before posting. That was a good suggestion.

Oh and Ed, no offense man, but your argument was full of holes...
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby H22 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:13 am

I agree with Sicon. Mostly. Hobbes would be looking down in horror and shock at some of our behaviours. However, I can't understand your final point. I don't even want proof, details would be acceptable.
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Sicon112 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:32 pm

H22 wrote:I agree with Sicon. Mostly. Hobbes would be looking down in horror and shock at some of our behaviours. However, I can't understand your final point. I don't even want proof, details would be acceptable.


Which final point? Mine? I can try to explain it as best I can.
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Scarab on Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:31 pm

Sicon112 wrote:I'm looking into the validity of the Cabal's claims. They do have a valid theory this time, but it is only as valid as Mr. A's at most. I do not understand why people are acting as though A is outright avoiding questions and such. Every action he has taken is perfectly understandable to me, as I view the matter in a pragmatic and detached light. I am really not sure as to why people are saying he is being mysterious or something. To me he is making perfect sense, and I would probably act no different in his place. All evidence points to him at least doing what he can to work with us as best he can, given his impairment of understanding. He isn't omniscient, and he has pointed this out before. Even with infinite instantiations, he can only do so much due to processing bottlenecks. He has said this himself, on his Twitter, for all the world to see. This is not to say I TRUST him, only that I understand him. Since I understand exactly how he is going about things, which is remarkably similar to my own MO, I know well enough not to trust him. However, I can at least be certain, within a reasonable margin of error, that he will continue acting in the same way he has been, and therefore I can predict him, more or less.

tl;dr, Mr. A appears to be doing everything he can to do what he believes is the best thing he can do in this situation, and he will probably keep doing so. Your accusations of unpredictability and dishonesty make no sense to me.

I am not saying I take any side at the moment, however. I am merely collecting information. I suggest that we all do so. Also, I think if you must recover one of the letters, I think the best thing to do would be to remove location information from it before posting. That was a good suggestion.

Oh and Ed, no offense man, but your argument was full of holes...


No offence intended here, Si, but you don't exactly have the most... straightfroward mindset when it comes to these things :? . I really do reckon Mister A could be a lot more direct and stop dodging questions. But I agree he does have difficulty with comprehending our way of thinking. Some of us were been trying to show him other methods of communciation, but it's a lot to learn in a short space of time, I don't think he's picking it up.

Another point is of course the fact that the Cabal do not HAVE the resources that Mister A has. It would be all but impossible for them to prove their claims. Mister A holds more cards in that regard but if he has information

Removing information is indeed a good suggestion, but I don't know if it would make a difference, not if the cabal is untrustworthy and just follows us.
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Erik M Walton on Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:37 pm

Well about time. I gave the idea for this
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Dryunya on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:10 am

HUGE Wall Of Text warning
First: I haven't been reading 2 other Cabal threads, so I may be repeating when I post there.

Now, my general thoughts (nitpicking below):
  1. ASSUMING LAWFUL EVIL STANCE. I'm not in the mood for moral dilemmas lately. I've put the moral implications aside a while ago, because we weren't making the choice whether or not to let the Cabal stay. We are making it now, so I'm saying it: Over my dead body. They have murdered at least one man (probably two), framed a kid (I can accept that they called the cops to stop him from going into the hurricane... but how exactly does getting him jail time help his cause, mm?), sent death threats to two people, one of which is still on the run, and Morgana has openly stated her return condition: to kill her brother and take over his kingdom. They changed, you say? My ass. I may yet accept that Erik and Don Juan have simply got themselves a bad company and can't back out. Erik has made some steps, and I have absolutely no information about Don Juan (I'm still following the latest case). M&M are criminals, and have no right to stay. PERIOD.
  2. Morgana's intention is pretty clear: she wants to stay. She is aware that her presence may destroy reality, but doesn't think that's the case and is willing to take the risk.
  3. The risk is what I've discussed already. I'm taking no risks when it comes to reality itself. Neither side has definite proof of their theory, so I'm going to side with the one that:
    1. has been trying to prevent the crisis,
    2. is an infinite entity in the Void Between The Worlds that has dedicated all of its time to studying fiction,
    3. didn't frame or kill anyone,
    4. claims that not siding with it will destroy reality, and
    5. has been actively trying to find whatever evidence to back its claims.
  4. Finding a wall piece reintegrates it into the wall, and therefore shouldn't be done (at least too often ;) ). I'm willing to let one slide for the sake of the experiment, but no more. Finding the agents' notes and posting the locations here will allow the Cabal to find the pieces.
  5. Morgana had claimed that we're lying to the fictionals and manipulating them. I can't speak for all of us, but I call bullshit. First, we couldn't afford being outright honest, for obvious reasons. What did she expect - "hi Bromeo, you're not actually real, you'll die in your story, but you have to go back or we'll all die"? Preventing that was my position.
  6. Meta: the Cabal members can find the pieces by themselves. I'm worried that Failure Is The Only Option. :? If even some of us choose their side, we can't stop the process, either. So, there's a high chance that we're fscked. :(
  7. Geographically, I'm limited to Pro-A side. :gurt:
  8. It's actually pretty tempting to get the Bad Ending, just to see how it's implemented. ;)
  9. Yes, I'm thinking in Black-And-White Morality. :evil:

Now, post nitpicking.
WackyMeetsPractical wrote:She's given us a mission: Go back to the spots where the echoes with Mr. A's face appeared and search for letters revealing the new locations of the wall pieces.

I say we do it. I mean, I know they're bad guys, but they're still PMs. It's an assignment. If we don't do it, we risk stalling the plot.

Nope. We're given a choice, and I'm assuming there are Multiple Endings (that doesn't have to be the case, though). If we follow it, there's a chance that we're following the plotline to an ending we don't want. If that's the only option, the GMs will enforce it anyway - see #5.

Scarab wrote:My gut wants to give everyone a chance. I WANT to believe Morgan. I just don't want the fate of the world to come down to my desires. In short I am stuck as hell right now, guys.

See #1. M&M have no more excuses. They are irredeemably evil. That's half of the Cabal. If we have to send them all together (hardly so, but with elephants), I'll do it. If not - we'll need to follow Erik's and Don Juan's plotlines to see how they act. Currently, I'm willing to assume that they are evil too, just because I'm in Lawful Evil mode (and Erik's letter was full of holes). :evil:

EdwardTheAwesome wrote:TL;DR I'm siding with Morgan. Let's find those wall pieces.

EdwardTheAwesome wrote:I'm siding with Morgan. Let's find those wall pieces.

EdwardTheAwesome wrote:I'm siding with Morgan.

EdwardTheAwesome wrote:siding with Morgan

Ed.
Edward.
Edward The Awesome.
What are you doing.
Stahp.

I'm not even going to point out the holes in your logic until you show it to Joe and let him post and answer to that. May I remind you that your goddamn friend is on the run, and he haven't even received a motherhumping apology!?

Scarab wrote:If we were to find these pieces of the wall (and thus also find the letters by Agent X, which I believe are now associated with those pieces)... could we then protect them OURSELVES, as a third party?

Sorry, that's not happening for meta reasons. I don't think we'll get to find the wall pieces even if we get their locations, just because it would be hard for the GMs to track it. I think it would be Cabal's job after posting the locations.

narrativedilettante wrote:In many stories, the villains are not defeated until after they’ve succeeded, or nearly succeeded, in their goal. It may not be possible to refictionalize the Cabal until they gather all the wall pieces and are in the process of trying to seal the wall with them on this side.

This. Villains Act, Heroes React. Calling it now.

Sicon112 wrote:tl;dr, Mr. A appears to be doing everything he can to do what he believes is the best thing he can do in this situation, and he will probably keep doing so. Your accusations of unpredictability and dishonesty make no sense to me.

This.

Sicon112 wrote:I am not saying I take any side at the moment, however. I am merely collecting information. I suggest that we all do so.

This, but I won't change my position, just because It's Personal.

Sicon112 wrote:Also, I think if you must recover one of the letters, I think the best thing to do would be to remove location information from it before posting. That was a good suggestion.

And this.

I'm done. :D
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Dryunya on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:15 am

Oh, one more thing. If you quote my entire previous post, I'll haunt you till the day you die. ^__^
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Adell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:25 am

Dryunya wrote:Oh, one more thing. If you quote my entire previous post, I'll haunt you till the day you die. ^__^


Yes, please let's not do that.

Though while I understand your view, I'm personally still not seeing the whole "irredeemably evil" side of things (besides Moriarty, who has definitely killed). I also personally believe you're reading too much into her "terms" to return to her world. That was, at least to me, an exaggeration to prove a point that some fictionals will only go back if we potentially write terrible things that cause more suffering for other characters. She was raising an issue of morality. (or something like that, may not be wording this exactly as I want)

Also, while you may see things in black and white, a lot of the others metaguards don't, so please keep that in mind if you don't agree with them. ;)
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Scarab on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:45 am

Adell wrote:
Dryunya wrote:Oh, one more thing. If you quote my entire previous post, I'll haunt you till the day you die. ^__^


Yes, please let's not do that.

Though while I understand your view, I'm personally still not seeing the whole "irredeemably evil" side of things (besides Moriarty, who has definitely killed). I also personally believe you're reading too much into her "terms" to return to her world. That was, at least to me, an exaggeration to prove a point that some fictionals will only go back if we potentially write terrible things that cause more suffering for other characters. She was raising an issue of morality. (or something like that, may not be wording this exactly as I want)

Also, while you may see things in black and white, a lot of the others metaguards don't, so please keep that in mind if you don't agree with them. ;)


*Points upwards* What Adell said, basically.

Though that said, I completely get your points Dryu and I think you make several very good ones.

The world is under threat. So long as that is a possibility, no matter how bad it may make me feel, no matter how much out actions may be questioned... I really don't see what choice we have. The risk before us is still the EXACT same one it was before Morgan contacted us. The only difference here is that I understand the Cabal do not have the resources that Mister A has in order to obtain the proof they need to fully convince us all and to ask them to provide that proof is unfair. We still have the fate of reality hanging over our heads. And on an unrelated note: if Moriarty wants to stay so badly? I hope he's ready to serve jail time. Consequences, ladies and gents. That's the thing about this world, we all have to face them.

Of course, if anybody can come up with a third option (and believe me I am currenty wracking my brains to come up with one -meta: which the GMs would allow- myself) then I am all over it.

Dryunya wrote:m not even going to point out the holes in your logic until you show it to Joe and let him post and answer to that. May I remind you that your goddamn friend is on the run, and he haven't even received a motherhumping apology!?

This is... kinda also a really good point, Ed. How does Joe feel about all this? we still haven't had an annoucnement from him and I'd like to hold off any desicions until that happens.
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby H22 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:06 pm

I'm bored, so I'm going to enjoy making you trek across Europe :D.

Don't Quote Dryu's Entire Post, it's too big!~Adell

1) In my view, there is no such thing as irredeemably evil. They are willing to do whatever it takes to make amends to Joe/an,
have admitted they have lost control over the prosecutor, and all she wants to do is kill her brother. Hell, Arthurian legend can't get that much worse. (UPD: I completely echo Adell. I hardly think he intended to murder everyone, she was just pointing out a problem with fictites. LJS wants pretty much the same thing, after all)

2) when has Mr. A EVER provided proof?

3) As an 'infinite entity', Mr. A should have provided proof.

4) There's a big difference between providing proof and blackmail, and A's crossed the line.

5) The Cabal are all in America; we are everywhere. And everyone. :D

6)I'm equally geographically limited.

7)So what we're doing to John, what we were doing to Romeo, what we did to the Witch, was all perfectly unmanipulative? If I might say, your point is both Damning the Example and irrelevant; we're talking of gambitting, not informing them of fictionality.

8) I personally don't think it's going to be multiple endings, but I don't think we can base what we can do on out-thinking the GMs in such a grey area.

9) I completely agree we can't do the whole keeping the wall ourselves; for one thing, where can we put them?

10) Everyone is avoiding pointing out these so-called errors.

11) Not the thread for discussing Mr. A., but I still disagree :D
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:14 pm

H22 wrote:4) There's a big difference between providing proof and blackmail, and A's crossed the line.


A hasn't blackmailed anyone. Link, please? He issued a couple of statements that were interpreted of threats, but when approached on the matter, he backed down. His last statement on the matter was a simple, neutral "Those who want to retrieve the Wall pieces are against us." Statement of fact. No threat, and certainly no blackmail.

H22 wrote:10) Everyone is avoiding pointing out these so-called errors.


Actually, I pointed out a great deal of them in my wall-of-text post that immediately followed Ed's.

And the only reason why I'm not addressing the rest of your points is because I and others have addressed them, at length, elsewhere, and I have neither the time nor the inclination at the moment for beating a dead horse.
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby H22 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:25 pm

I personally love horses, and thus wish to give this deceased equine the most decent burial possible :(.

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:
H22 wrote:4) There's a big difference between providing proof and blackmail, and A's crossed the line.


A hasn't blackmailed anyone. Link, please? He issued a couple of statements that were interpreted of threats, but when approached on the matter, he backed down. His last statement on the matter was a simple, neutral "Those who want to retrieve the Wall pieces are against us." Statement of fact. No threat, and certainly no blackmail.

H22 wrote:10) Everyone is avoiding pointing out these so-called errors.


Actually, I pointed out a great deal of them in my wall-of-text post that immediately followed Ed's.

And the only reason why I'm not addressing the rest of your points is because I and others have addressed them, at length, elsewhere, and I have neither the time nor the inclination at the moment for beating a dead horse.


Maybe I say blackmail too much, but the 'against us' is really too much. I don't really want to beat this dead horse, but that leaves us no room for maneouvre; the Cabal do allow us negotiating room. That is hardly 'neutral'; it is him trying to make a broken base.
Not to mention all the threats he has previously enunciated if you ARE against him. Just because he doesn't threaten to kill us within 140 characters doesn't mean he wouldn't.

10) Sorry, I forgot your post.
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Dryunya on Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:21 pm

3 words: No Social Skills. When catching up, I've read Mr. A's posts about those threats, and he really doesn't know better. The others (sorry, don't remember who) tried to convince him to change his tone, and, well, he tried. Not much of an improvement, but still. :)
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Scarab on Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:31 pm

Dryunya wrote:3 words: No Social Skills. When catching up, I've read Mr. A's posts about those threats, and he really doesn't know better. The others (sorry, don't remember who) tried to convince him to change his tone, and, well, he tried. Not much of an improvement, but still. :)


I am tempted to agree howver I don't think it's so much a simple case of not knowing better as a complete case of Blue and Orange Morality. His species literally seems to be incapable of direct clear communication, they HAVE to be mysterious and vaguely threatening at all times and they see nothing wrong with this - it's jst how things are for them.

This doens't mean he's incapable of lying, of course, but it's soemthing to consider.
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Re: Morgan's Chat Session Discussion

Postby Sicon112 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Please stop using the "A is infinite" excuse guys. Mr. A addressed that AGES ago, before it even came up! Someone asked him about having infinite processing power during the AMA out of the blue and he explained that that fails to take into account various other variables, and if you do so then he does not, in fact, have infinite power due to processing bottlenecks.
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