Discussion of E-mails to and from the Cabal

[Sicon112]

I would also like to note that I absolutely refuse to acknowledge Morgan's whole thing about how she was being forced to do everything. If anyone wants to hear more about that, take this quote from my brother on the issue:

A tale is not some mere jumble of words in which a god imposes his whims upon helpless puppets. A tale is the story of living, reasoning beings who have their own hearts and their own minds. To call it otherwise is to deny the most fundamental tenets of that which we call literature"]

She talked about being pulled to do certain things and fighting back in vain. Two words...

BULL. SH*T.

I'm sorry, I just will not accept this idea. I've said it before and I will say it again, characters are who they are. Period. If anyone here expects me to buy that... well, you are out of luck. (Meta: and as I have said before, the idea disgusts me so much that I fully intend to ragequit this game if it turns out to be the intended case)

This doesn't mean I necessarily think she is lying. It's possible she is making this up, either because she is now good but doesn't believe we would treat her well if she admitted to once being evil, or is evil and wants us to pity her. Of course, she could also truly be deluded into believing such a thing. For instance, the her of now could regret some of her previous actions so much, either the mistakes she made that caused her to lose or the evils she committed, so much that she is subconsciously making herself into a victim of a higher power. This allows her to justify her actions without really admitting her own fault in the matter, which is, unfortunately, something that humans tend to do a lot.

Just some thoughts on that matter.

[Qara-Xuan Zenith]

(Keep in mind that writing a bad ending technically invokes And I Must Scream - not from the character's POV, but globally. Don't let your personal grudges get in the way of proper Metaguarding. Looking at you, Qara.

*whispers* Guys... A was JOKING about giving them endings where they die over and over and over and over. JOKING. I ... thought that was obvious?

Also, I dumped this in the chat a couple times but I know not everyone reads the logs, so I'll say it again here for Dryu and anyone else angry about my Juan refic:

I. DID NOT. WRITE IT. TO BE. VINDICTIVE.

I don't WRITE STORIES out of SPITE. Why? Well, for one thing, because I CAN'T. I write what the creative impulse compels me to write. I took a character, a trope, and a setting, and I envisioned the start of a scene. So I sat down and started writing the scene from that one point, and kept on writing until it told me it was over. I did not set out to poison Juan, but that's what the character in the story wanted to DO. And I'm not going to change it after the fact, or hold off on submitting it, because some people think it's nasty to the character-- because I have a thing called "artistic integrity" which impels me to preserve the story AS IT WAS WRITTEN, and to put it to the purpose for WHICH it was written. To do anything else would be to betray my own art.

That said, I will admit that I AM quite satisfied with how it turned out, because frankly, I DO think it's what Juan deserves. Would I have submitted it even if I felt the way it ended was "too kind" for him? Absolutely. As it happened, I lucked out with the creative juices. And I have still commented... somewhere... that I sincerely hope more people send in "kinder" refics for him, and I sincerely hope that whichever has the most narrative weight will be chosen.

[Dryunya]

I. DID NOT. WRITE IT. TO BE. VINDICTIVE.

Sorry if I misread your intentions, but you clearly hold an even bigger grudge against the Cabal than I do. Just saying.

[EdwardTheAwesome]

She talked about being pulled to do certain things and fighting back in vain. Two words...

BULL. SH*T.

I'm sorry, I just will not accept this idea. I've said it before and I will say it again, characters are who they are. Period. If anyone here expects me to buy that... well, you are out of luck.

I think that if, what you're saying here is true and if what Morgan's said before is also true, then that would simply make her an idiot, which I don't think she is.

If she's lived out some events multiple times, and remembered previous times where those events happened going into the new event, then she should know how to change her actions in such a way to win. She should know exactly what went wrong, be able to analyze it, and do something new or different. Instead, what happens? The same mistakes leading to the same downfall.

I'm not sold on the idea that this is what happens for everyone, but it doesn't seem like she's trying to speak for everyone with this statement. Again with the whole "she has lots of authors" thing, it's not something that necessarily applies to the other characters.

[averagejoe]

I'm gonna call Occam's Razor here. Why is it easier to believe all that than to believe that she's just...lying?

[EdwardTheAwesome]

Occam's Razor calls for you to accept the simplest solution given the evidence, not to throw the evidence out. Morgan is providing us as reliable evidence as Mr. Administrator, if not more so. So... that's why?

[Qara-Xuan Zenith]

If she's lived out some events multiple times, and remembered previous times where those events happened going into the new event, then she should know how to change her actions in such a way to win. She should know exactly what went wrong, be able to analyze it, and do something new or different. Instead, what happens? The same mistakes leading to the same downfall.

Listen, maybe my argument just boils down to "I'm the idiot you thing Morgan isn't". Because while I haven't lived out my life multiple times, at least as far as I KNOW, I've made the same stupid mistakes several times over, sometimes within a short period of time, right after saying I'd never make that mistake again. Heck, you know it's true; I've made a great deal of them HERE.

Why is that? Because I'm stupid? Because I don't know any other way out of the problem? Well, maybe I'm stupid, but that's not my point. It's because sometimes emotions overwhelm logic. Sometimes I have to do what I'm going to do even though I know it will fail, it will make me lose out, just because doing anything else wouldn't be ME.

I'm not saying that that MUST be the case with Morgan, but I think it's equally simplistic to say "if she's made the same mistakes, it must be because She Can't Fight Fate, or she's an idiot." People make the wrong decisions for all sorts of right reasons.

[averagejoe]

Morgan saying "THIS IS THE TRUTH" and giving us a complicated list of OH HEY THIS ONLY WORKS FOR ME BLA BLA BLA seems a mite more complicated than "She is lying about it to make us have The Feels."

Whatever. This is abstract enough that it doesn't really...matter? Affect anything?

Edited so that The Feels were properly capitalized. No, that doesn't really matter or affect anything. Yes, I realize the irony. No, I don't...particularly care.

[Dryunya]

If she's lived out some events multiple times, and remembered previous times where those events happened going into the new event, then she should know how to change her actions in such a way to win. She should know exactly what went wrong, be able to analyze it, and do something new or different. Instead, what happens? The same mistakes leading to the same downfall.

I'm not sold on the idea that this is what happens for everyone, but it doesn't seem like she's trying to speak for everyone with this statement. Again with the whole "she has lots of authors" thing, it's not something that necessarily applies to the other characters.

I'm pretty sure that even if she remembers her Multiple Choice Past, she didn't remember it back in fictionland. Because remembering alternate universes would definitely be her chracter trait in legends if she did.

You know, I think it's time to draw one major line in my reasoning.

I'm saying that, from the characters' POVs, before being pulled here, they considered themselves real and alive, for all intents and purposes. They believed that they had free will (well, as much as we believe it - they could doubt it as well), they could say why they behave the way they do, they could predict their own actions. Just regular humans (and The Witch ).

Morgana says that her every living moment was a torture, And I Must Scream with futile attempts to fight her destiny, while being fully aware that she could take a different path, if only she was allowed to do so by her universe. And she uses that argument to oppose her refictionalization.

Unless anyone can prove me wrong, I do not believe her words on the latter. And if you prove me wrong, I promise not to write anything ever in my life. And neither should you. Think of all the torture you bring with that!

[eli_gone_crazy]

So, we have come to a point.
I mean seriously guys?
we are better than this?! So she came from a villainous story, how does that affect now? She is in a different setting, free of the constraints that the story set on her. And yes, I do think that social pressures had an effect. In the sense that, in her story, women were expected to behave a certain way. so she, as a character, was innately different. She thought an dbehaved in different ways. here we don't have those restraints. here she can be herself without fear of recrimination. so, yeah I'd want to avoid being sent back in her case.

She also has a point in that we don't know what other levels of reality feel like. We are only really aware of our own, and only capable of comprehending our level at this time. So free will may feel different on the second level. We don't know.

I think that villainizing someone defeats our purpose here. If you want to force her back, fine; just come up with a better reason than I don't like her.

[averagejoe]

@Dryu - To be fair, you are asking for proof from the only person who could give it to you, and she has said what she can about it. If you're looking for something more...I mean, she couldn't have like filmed it or anything. (Also, regular humans and the Witch and THE CAT )

@Eli - I hadn't thought about setting as story. Huh. Still don't think it completely defines her character or whatever, as she HAS done evil acts here, but that's interesting.

But anyway. I don't think this is a fruitful discussion anymore and we don't need to be having it. The people who feel one way will feel one way, the people who feel another way will feel another. Totally not worth arguing about.

[Pixelmage]

Guys... Stop for a moment...

Didn't most of us already cast openly that we want to refictionalize the Cabal?
Qara is openly on that path from the beginning, so is Sicon due to mathematical probability and Dryu already stated all the meta reasons why he's going that route...

One or two pages back comes Adell, saying "ok, let's refic them, but let's not be jerks to them." Wacky and SoS chime in with their support...

I mean, we're all on the same path here. There are those against reficking them, such as Ed, of course, but what we're debating back and forth now is not whether to do it or not, is whether Morgan is a decent human being or not... In my opinion, that's not really necessary.

If the price to save the world was to send Santa to hell, we'd all do it crying or laughing, but we would. And if him being here could cause no harm... Well, my faith does not work with that particular creed, but I'd have no issue letting him stay. I mean, it's not like we must cross paths anyway.
But we have no proof of either side, and if we're going in blind... I'm afraid this much circular discussion will only lead us to fighting among ourselves.

Bottom line, you're trying to persuade the other side not by merit of argument here. You're attacking the person, making those who defend her feel like they're defending a monster. And making those who oppose her, like they are opposing a saint. I exaggerate, of course. But you understand the idea.

Please guys... Don't keep going down that path. We're just being jerks to ourselves here.

Ninja'd By Joe:

But anyway. I don't think this is a fruitful discussion anymore and we don't need to be having it. The people who feel one way will feel one way, the people who feel another way will feel another. Totally not worth arguing about.

[Dryunya]

(Sorry, still arguing - ninja'd by "no arguing" guys...)

She also has a point in that we don't know what other levels of reality feel like. We are only really aware of our own, and only capable of comprehending our level at this time. So free will may feel different on the second level. We don't know.

Except that we interacted with a lot of other characters. Bromeo, for instance, kept saying how this world is so much better than Verona in many aspects, and he never mentioned that "I totally feel much more free will here". Ok, maybe he didn't want to tell us that he was fictional. But then, there are the detectives, who cracked early on. And if they felt any different, I'm pretty sure they would say that. As I said - the rules are the same for everyone.

Qara is openly on that path from the beginning, so is Sicon due to mathematical probability and Dryu already stated all the meta reasons why he's going that route...

My primary reason is mathematical probability. Meta is the second, and I've dropped it midway in the game.

[averagejoe]

Hi guys. I keep saying that this discussion should be over, but no one seems to be taking my hint. So...stop, guys. Minutiae do not matter. No one will change anyone's mind by arguing the minutiae. END TRANSMISSION. I couldn't help myself...

[Sicon112]

Yup. I think we are god enough as is. I've stated my position, and Dryu, as always nailed it right after me. I do not believe Morgan was aware of any force acting on her outside of her surroundings and situation, in other words, the things that were in her world with her. I also believe that this is because there really WASN'T anything acting on her at the time other than the situation set by the myths, which were in turn based on reality at the time, as they had to be to be a reasonable story. The rest was all her own choice. I won't get into a talk of whether she was oppressed by stuff like the bias against women, because of course she was, but that was not because her author was being pointlessly vindictive, that was merely LIFE at the time. No, it wasn't a good thing, but it WAS a thing, and I don't think anyone believes otherwise.

And that's about all I've got on that track.


So this is considered continuing the conversation rather than dropping it. Just for the record. -Joe

[Sicon112]

So, Dil... I just read your e-mail and... you DO realize that is pretty much outright stating your intent to MURDER one of our biggest helpers, right?

[narrativedilettante]

Yep. But only in a story about him. I adore Holmes, he's just about my favorite fictional character ever, but I'm perfectly willing to murder a version of him.

I am a monster.

[Genndy Oda C.O.G.]

Congratulations. You have surpassed moral qualms, and are on your way to being a honest-to-gosh Metaguard Templar.

[Qara-Xuan Zenith]

So, uh, yeah. Just dropping this here for anyone else thinking about it to... think about, though I've already discussed the problem with Dilly. Holmes and Moriarty are from the SAME world. Even if they get different refics, well, what's canon in one book is still canon for another book set in the same world. We've never experimented with this before, so it's all too possible that killing Holmes in Moriarty's refic kills Holmes for good, once he gets sent back.

And I, uh... really don't want that to happen? I mean, we mobilized to prevent Quixote from dying; we don't want to send characters back against their wishes, so I REALLY think it's not within our "moral scope" to murder Holmes, even once back in his own world.

So for everyone planning a Moriarty refic: Please, PLEASE stop short of killing Holmes. Just in case.

[screenstorming]

So, uh, yeah. Just dropping this here for anyone else thinking about it to... think about, though I've already discussed the problem with Dilly. Holmes and Moriarty are from the SAME world. Even if they get different refics, well, what's canon in one book is still canon for another book set in the same world. We've never experimented with this before, so it's all too possible that killing Holmes in Moriarty's refic kills Holmes for good, once he gets sent back.

And I, uh... really don't want that to happen? I mean, we mobilized to prevent Quixote from dying; we don't want to send characters back against their wishes, so I REALLY think it's not within our "moral scope" to murder Holmes, even once back in his own world.

So for everyone planning a Moriarty refic: Please, PLEASE stop short of killing Holmes. Just in case.

Yeah, I gotta agree with that. I'll skip the wall of text analysis... for now.

[Mr. Administrator]

WE DISAGREE.
WE DO NOT ADVISE LIMITING YOUR NARRATIVE OPTIONS.

[Pixelmage]

WE DISAGREE.
WE DO NOT ADVISE LIMITING YOUR NARRATIVE OPTIONS.

Could we ask then, if they will share the same world on the other side? As that seems like a very strong point to influence this decision for most of us.

[narrativedilettante]

WE DISAGREE.
WE DO NOT ADVISE LIMITING YOUR NARRATIVE OPTIONS.

Okay, I'm going to listen to Mr. A on this one. If he'd said to avoid killing Holmes I would have found another way to give Moriarty a victory, but I think this constitutes sufficient permission to go through with what I have in mind.

[WackyMeetsPractical]

From Morgan's last e-mail to Eli:

If the time comes that it become apparent that we are the cause of the disturbance, and our banishment is truly necessary for saving this world – then, and only then, will we agree to leave.

I'm rolling my eyes in disbelief. I don't believe this for a moment. Maybe a couple of them may agree. But I don't believe they are all just so good people that they would make that kind of sacrifice for us. The way they've been talking about how horrible being fictional is, I would believe they would rather die and doom us all in the process then willfully agree to go back. Sorry Morgan, but you are LYING.

[Adell]

From Morgan's last e-mail to Eli:

If the time comes that it become apparent that we are the cause of the disturbance, and our banishment is truly necessary for saving this world – then, and only then, will we agree to leave.

I'm rolling my eyes in disbelief. I don't believe this for a moment. Maybe a couple of them may agree. But I don't believe they are all just so good people that they would make that kind of sacrifice for us. The way they've been talking about how horrible being fictional is, I would believe they would rather die and doom us all in the process then willfully agree to go back. Sorry Morgan, but you are LYING.

Of course, if it is proven that they are the cause of the disturbance and their banishment is necessary, I imagine they would want to go back. If they don't they're dead in this hypothetical instance. it's not so much sacrifice as it is saving their own butts (and maybe it is sacrifice too if some of them would be willing to I guess).