Watch the Footage archive

Scarab wrote:

H22 wrote:Well, my position:

The Cabal are not 'terrorists'. According to Merriam-Webster, terrorism is 'the systematic use of terror for coercion.' They have never used terror, let alone systematically, and have never coerced. Semantics, in its proper meaning, is actually very important, at least when to some extent your argument depends on it.

...They sent threatening letters that implied death would result from Joe's continuation into investigating them in an attempt to make him stop. That sounds like terrorism to me.

It's not systematic (they did it to one (or two (arguably (I love imbedded brackets)))), it wasn't 'terror' (which generally involves actual killing) and it wasn't coercion by my definition.
But it's irrelevant, and Q and I were just having a lovely tram talk .

P.S I took the liberty of correcting a typo.

What's this thing Tohr's latest email refers to, one wonders?

If you mean "something we want very dearly", I think she referred to cooperation.

Dryunya wrote:If you mean "something we want very dearly", I think she referred to cooperation.

Perhaps. Maybe if they'd considered that earlier, I'd still be interested. But I'm not. I've emailed Morgana; if I hear back from her, I'll post the exchange. I'm washing my hands of the Cabal now, personally. Everyone else is free to treat them as they please, but I'm not going to have anything further to do with them if I can help it.

Tohrina is awesome!!!

Awesome Tohr. We needed that.

Ok, with the recent reply to Pixel she's making me look like a complete stubborn dick. With the new data, I should state my reasoning again.

You see, they have created a huge problem for themselves: they have cast a shadow over themselves from the very beginning, and their record is far from perfect. Don Juan is believed to have kidnapped a man, Moriarty is a suspected double-murderer, Morgana is a mastermind who also greenlit the plan to threaten Joe (and, I assume, Joan too). I still don't know what's in store for Erik. Not to mention that actually being the villains made us biased, and their actions only made things worse.

So, OK, you may say that they are reforming, making amends and stuff. And here's the problem I'm talking about - their every action may be interpreted as damage control and an attempt to get on our good side to further their goals. They have got themselves into a position when it, again, boils down to the matter of trust. And they have given me every reason not to.

You know what may make me actually doubt? Doing something that's absolutely against their interest. And even then, I'll probably view it as an especially big sacrifice to earn our trust. The only actual 100% redemption I can come up with for them is surrendering themselves to clean their names. But don't think that would make me forget what they had done by now.

I think that at minimum, Morgana should be considered a grey-area ally, the helper batting at least in name for the villains team. I do not think she should get a free pass of any sort, but I feel she can be trusted to a degree, as we know that her overall goal in this world is not altogether evil.

The other three members of the Cabal I still distrust, but since Morgan has helped us with Quixote's echo, and I have taken a great liking to Quixote as many of us have, I am inclined to look more favorably on her motives and actions.

Based on Morgan's latest email to me, I get the impression she's becoming resigned to refictionalization.

narrativedilettante wrote:Based on Morgan's latest email to me, I get the impression she's becoming resigned to refictionalization.

For some reason that kind of makes me sad :S

Blurred_9L wrote:

narrativedilettante wrote:Based on Morgan's latest email to me, I get the impression she's becoming resigned to refictionalization.

For some reason that kind of makes me sad :S

Really? Because I find it hard to sympathize with her sob story about spending the last remaining time with her SERIAL KILLER boyfriend before they get extradited, so to speak, back to where they belong. They're illegal immigrants to this reality, and their crimes have a consequence: extradition. In other words, in consequence for their actions, they have to be sent back. If she's recognized that-- great. But all this "resignation" just makes me smell a trap somewhere. I don't know what they're cooking up, but I'm sure I won't like the taste.

Well, if they have something up their sleeve they'll use it, it's not like we won't be able to handle it. I was just expressing a feeling, considering we'll refictionalize them anyway.

Morgan deserves far better treatment than what we've been giving her. Yes that's my opinion, yes it's not the popular one. No I don't care, cause I can't stand the way we've begun to view her.

At first I understood, in fact I was probably right there with Qara and Dryu in how I viewed these 'villains'. But it was around the time when we were refictionalizing Adam that my view of them began to change. When we ended up nearly sending him home without him ever understanding what was happening...potentially against his wishes. The very idea of something like that happening to anyone is terrifying, and I was incredibly upset about how things had been handled, enough that I made a post to him anyway to explain the situation, as fruitless as it was. I became more aware of our excessive gambits, our manipulations of these characters, our compromise of our morals. I couldn't stand it anymore, and I'm not going to be taking part in them either. It's not my style, and I can't be bothered with them. We shouldn't NEED to do this, we shouldn't NEED to lie and cheat and manipulate...and in fact I think we've done our best work when we've been honest with these characters and actually worked together with them as opposed to playing them for fools.

But that's how we operated, and it caused the paranoia of the metaguards to skyrocket through the fucking roof. We became afraid of sharing any plans because of the Cabal, despite Morgans openness and willingness to compromise. It's gotten SO BAD, that we literally twist every action, every WORD she says into some sort of antagonistic approach when she does NOT deserve such thinking, at all. From the very beginning with our chat with her, she had made it very clear she did not want fictionals to die, but what happens when she gets the echo for Don (potentially saving his life, I might add)? We accuse her of stealing it from us, as if she'd use it as some bargaining chip before she even admitted to having it. So what's the first thing she does, she emails it the few that have been the most receptive to her emails...hoping, PRAYING that they'd listen to her, and thinking/KNOWING that if she had given it to those more vocally against her that the action would have been painted as morally wrong and evil anyway. But we all know the truth, that she did this action not as some sort of charity, not as some sort of gambit, but as a chance to ACTUALLY HELP someone. To save a life. The truth is, she's been respectful and cooperative since first opening communications, and has genuinely tried to help...but we allow ourselves to be blinded by our own hatred to see it. We want her to be the villain, and so we make her the villain.

Well I've noticed, I've seen her try to make amends to Joe, prevent Pan from killing himself in the hurricane. She has allowed Deanna to get professional help while simultaneously reinvigorating Joan's career. Some of us argue that these were all attempts to gain our trust, to play our game and to get us to do things for her. It isn't. What it was was Morgan taking responsibilities for her actions, to try in her own way to make amends. Maybe these attempts weren't the best way to handle things, but we give Mr.A the same lee way with his actions using some fragile excuse that he "doesn't get us." I say, if we're gonna give HIM a free pass, than I will definitely be giving her one for her actions under a similar excuse.

I can't speak for the other members of the Cabal; I'm not trying to. I believe they should take responsibility as she has, whether that means helping us or turning themselves over to the police. What I'm saying is, is that Morgan is not as we have painted her. Perhaps she was before, in her story, but people can change; these characters can and HAVE changed. the Fictionals have proven that the environment in our world can change them dramatically, for the better! But we are denying this one her chance to reform, to accept that maybe she doesn't HAVE to be the villain. Maybe there isn't a villain in this whole thing, and maybe we should stop looking for one.

What side am I on? I'm on the side that is about doing the right thing. Even if our only choice is to send every one of these characters back, they deserve the chance to change and be...well, more than just some written character. I want to save this world, but I won't compromise my morals in the process. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I'm not telling people how to think, I'm telling you how I feel on the matter and what I think we should be doing. If you agree with me then, well, thank you.

I think that's all I got to say. Carry on.



So...tl;dr: I, uh, disagree. <.<;

*applauds Adell*

Adell, you've captured my feelings perfectly. To be honest, although I have started off being strictly anti-cabal, I'm finding my actions and thoughts to be slightly more pro-Cabal. I still don't agree with them fundamentally. I'd rather refic them all. But with all Morgan's being doing to help, and Mr. A seems to be kind of hindering in the wall piece department, which is understandable, but still very dangerous given the state of things.

I am of the feeling that both sides are, to some degree, good guys trying to do what they think is right, with some shades of grey when it comes to their tactics and activities, and to some degree, that describes us too. At this point, I wish we could just drop the "They are right, and they are wrong" and the "Who should we trust?" mentality, and just focus on doing what is right for us.

Qara, I understand your need to be stubborn on the Cabal issue, but don't you think it's about time you give them a break. I mean, you can still disagree with them, and side against them, but you can also do that while recognizing that they are human beings with emotions and a conscience who may possibly be trying to do the right thing given the circumstances that they are in. At the very least, you can treat them with a sense of courtesy. Even if you don't think they deserve it, it's really about being the better person, and that's what better people do.

As much as i would like to believe the Cabal has changed (and if i haven't made it clear before: if they have changed and there presence won't hurt us I'm all for letting them stay) we should be way more careful than we are being. A sympathetic villain is still a villain (speaking metaphorically of course, unless they haven't changed)

Adell, your post was beautiful and eloquent and well-thought-out. I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph about doing, ultimately, what's morally right.

But I still disagree with everything else you're saying. I won't push the issue further. It's just that your argument hinges on Rousseau Was Right, and I find that difficult to accept based on my knowledge/experience of the real world.

And Wacky, and everyone else who think I'm taking a game way too seriously, please let it drop. Trust me that the morality I'm basing this on runs far deeper, and far more personal, than this ARG, and I can't elaborate due to Rule 6-- nor do I want to. But if you push me on it, I will explain further in private, and we will probably both regret that. I don't want to lose friends over this-- but the RL issue at hand is important enough to me that I will risk friendships rather than back down or compromise on it. So please just trust me, and let it drop.

Well, after Adell's wall of text mine will be a bit underwhelming.

My views on the cabal are simple. Treat them with decent human respect, until they deserve to not have that respect. Don't trust them, by any means, but recognize that they have emotions as well. If we see and opportunity to understand them better, take it.
My paranoia about them runs high, but I still want to try and understand them, and help if I can. That is where I have decided that I want to be.

I just try to treat everyone politely. It gives me access to info that being rude could not, and it makes me seem like less of a threat. The Cabal is no exception. They seem nice, so I trust them. It's as easy as that.

My position is identical yet opposite to Qara's. I have my personal beliefs, which I will not enuunciat, but it ensures it id morallu impossible to take a hard line on the C. Put simply, I see Rosseau, Locke and Millare really right.
I completely agree with Adell and Genndy

Adell, limes for your harder speeching. Srsly. In fact, our posts are not contradictive. The difference is that you're willing to trust in them, and I'm not.

WackyMeetsPractical wrote:At the very least, you can treat them with a sense of courtesy. Even if you don't think they deserve it, it's really about being the better person, and that's what better people do.

When I said that I'm a horrible person, nobody seemed to listen. г_г

My stance remains the same as it always has been. I'm pro-A, anti-Cabal, but see a major need for co-operation between us all to ensure a smoother experience for all involved. Morgana has shown a will to do that and I applaud it.

Morgan Le Fey wrote: I will certainly bring it up with him when he gets back from Russia

Umwhat?
LJS is in Russia?

<_<

>_>

I wonder what does this mean for a certain Russian metaguard

Holy shit. GMs. Hint at the town he's in. Liek naow. I crave some actual (hot) Meta-Knight action.

Genndy Oda C.O.G. wrote:Mr. Wayne, also known as GuestUser17, has obtained a piece

I see what you did there.

Genndy Oda C.O.G. wrote:Also, as a way of saying thanks for your help, here is a video for you and Mr. (Dr.?) Moriarty to share: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5mtaPJ3EH8.

There's no way I'm not interpreting that as a Rick Roll.