Discussion of E-mails to and from the Cabal

[narrativedilettante]

From one of Morgan's emails to me:

[W]e’d rather die in this world than be forced back into our old ones. At least then our fate would be our choice.

It's conceivable that she'd accept the destruction of this world as the price for her freedom. But then again, maybe the deaths of billions means more to her than her own death would.

[eli_gone_crazy]

From Morgan's last e-mail to Eli:

If the time comes that it become apparent that we are the cause of the disturbance, and our banishment is truly necessary for saving this world – then, and only then, will we agree to leave.

I'm rolling my eyes in disbelief. I don't believe this for a moment. Maybe a couple of them may agree. But I don't believe they are all just so good people that they would make that kind of sacrifice for us. The way they've been talking about how horrible being fictional is, I would believe they would rather die and doom us all in the process then willfully agree to go back. Sorry Morgan, but you are LYING.

Call me niave, but.. I don't think she's lying.
She basically said, hey, we want to stay, but we're gonna be useful.
From the emails I have sent and received from her, I don't think she's perfect, but I think she's trying.
and honestly, if the wall falling IS their fault, leaving becomes the best option. Either we make them pay, or some unknown does.

[WackyMeetsPractical]

From one of Morgan's emails to me:

[W]e’d rather die in this world than be forced back into our old ones. At least then our fate would be our choice.

It's conceivable that she'd accept the destruction of this world as the price for her freedom. But then again, maybe the deaths of billions means more to her than her own death would.

Thanks for pulling that quote out Narra. I knew I saw that somewhere.

That just proves my point. She contradicted herself. Either she lied then or she's lying now. But most likely, she's lying now.

[Pixelmage]

Not necessarily lying. Adell made a point. If this world dies. Hightailing out is saving their own asses. So if she's evil, there's motive.

About Dilly's point though. She might be willing to forfeit her life to not go back. Say, commit suicide to not be forced back, or go back through the wall if staying means killing everyone here.

[WackyMeetsPractical]

Not necessarily lying. Adell made a point. If this world dies. Hightailing out is saving their own asses. So if she's evil, there's motive.

About Dilly's point though. She might be willing to forfeit her life to not go back. Say, commit suicide to not be forced back, or go back through the wall if staying means killing everyone here.

I'm sorry, but she said herself that she'd rather die than be returned, so the whole returning to save themselves thing doesn't fly. The only reason they would agree to do that is if it turns out they care more about us than they do about them, and although I don't necessarily believe they're villainous, I also don't believe they're that chivalrous. Now I didn't consider them committing suicide, but again, that seems extreme and I don't think they're likely to do that.

I mean, I don't care if they want to be selfish and doom us all if it turns out that's the case, but they can just say that, instead of lying about it. And there's no way you can say that there is no lying involved here. We have on record two contradicting statements from the same person. One is true, the other isn't. That's all there is to it.

[Adell]

Why is it *lying* exactly? And not like...a change of heart, finding different motivation and beliefs? Ya know, changing. I just find it astonishing that the prospect of these characters motives changing seems absolutely impossible. Ya know, when i was a kid I hated vegetables, but now I eat them just fine. Does that make younger/adult me a liar? This is the stuff I've been talking about. :/

[narrativedilettante]

I find it entirely possible to believe that a person would change their mind about something like this. Morgan may have written things in haste and contradicted herself without realizing it. I can't say what her actual position would be if we had absolute proof that reality would collapse from her presence. But we're unlikely to get evidence, so I don't think it's of great concern anyway.

[Scarab]

We’d rather die in this world than be forced back into our old ones. At least then our fate would be our choice.

Maybe so. She doesn't have the right to make that choice for the rest of the world, though. She'd be taking that risk if she stayed.

I think I'm stating the obvious there but... you know. With elephants.

[Sicon112]

Just saying, they are not mutually exclusive. The quote where she says she would rather die operates on the basic assumption that she is not harming the world. The second does away with that assumption. While there is enough clash there to cause questioning, it is possible that she was saying she would rather die than be forced back meaninglessly, but if it could be proven that she would destroy the world with her presence, she would return.

[narrativedilettante]

What Sicon just said is what I was trying to say and not coming up with the words for.

[screenstorming]

Why is it *lying* exactly? And not like...a change of heart, finding different motivation and beliefs? Ya know, changing. I just find it astonishing that the prospect of these characters motives changing seems absolutely impossible. Ya know, when i was a kid I hated vegetables, but now I eat them just fine. Does that make younger/adult me a liar? This is the stuff I've been talking about. :/

Exactly.

Just saying, they are not mutually exclusive. The quote where she says she would rather die operates on the basic assumption that she is not harming the world. The second does away with that assumption. While there is enough clash there to cause questioning, it is possible that she was saying she would rather die than be forced back meaninglessly, but if it could be proven that she would destroy the world with her presence, she would return.

Exactly.

There are Hidden Depths here in a character that is complex enough to exchange thoughtful emails with real people. Part of the question really comes down to how you want to interpret her, as a deceptive liar, or as a person stuck between a rock and a hard place, and between the devil and the deep blue sea?

Many real people would prioritize their own survival over countless faceless goons, or even real people -- A Million Is A Statistic. Likewise, many populations would demonize and crucify anyone who would even seem like they might meddle with their Status Quo. Even more so if an authority figure is willing to take responsibility for the dirty work! Consider the Obedience to Authority experiment. Consider Paths of Glory, a major inspiration of David Simon's in creating The Wire, due to the universal themes that so often play out in real life.

How much is this a witch hunt, even a sort of Inquisition against the infidel fictionals, combined with a huge misunderstanding about the threat Morgan herself poses?

[WackyMeetsPractical]

How much is this a witch hunt, even a sort of Inquisition against the infidel fictionals, combined with a huge misunderstanding about the threat Morgan herself poses?

This isn't a witch hunt on my part. I've sympathized with Morgan up until this point. I'm not looking for flaws where there aren't any.

I've come to understand Morgan as a living and feeling human being. I felt I understood her motivations and mentality. And most of that understanding is knowing that being returned to their fictional worlds is the last thing any of them want. In the past, she's spoken of that prospect as a fate worse than death and has made it clear that she would do ANYTHING to avoid that faith. Though she's also made it clear that she doesn't want to have to resort to villainous means, though she would if she had to. But not once did she mention a condition in which she would be able to willingly submit to that fate. The fact that she would do so so casually in that past e-mail just feels so out of character for me, unlike anything she has said to anybody else ever, and with no indication of any event that may cause a change of heart. Not so much as a "I've been doing some thinking about my previous stance". It just feels so sudden and out of place.

I don't wish to villainize Morgan. I still don't view her that way. But when I see something that feels off, I'm going to point it out, and this feels off. Maybe I'm wrong. I wish I were. But I don't think I am.

[screenstorming]

That makes sense, Wacky. I didn't mean to imply that you were on a witch hunt, but the overall situation makes me concerned about about her basically being scapegoated, or sacrificed for no reason, especially given Mr. A's levels of spite, and his theory driving the plot forward like a steamroller.

I wonder how she would respond to the accusation of an abrupt change in tone, what her explanation would be. Maybe she is getting more desperate, and starting to consider hypotheticals she rejected outright in the past. Maybe she'd claim it's her writers' fault for not using the best possible explanation and wording! It's almost the kind of thing you'd sue a lawyer for. Instead of legal malpractice, her authors didn't flesh her out well enough, and her fate might come down to how real she comes across as.

That's rather meta, but, one way or another, her fate will come down to what various people write, herself included. Talk about a high stakes test! And what she writes depends in part, on her background knowledge, what her teachers or parents taught her, or what she read about on tvtropes. Her fate will also depend on how others interpret that writing. Even in the case of refics, that's part of the deal. Maybe she could be persuaded to help write her refic, as if she was planning her future here? Then again, she might be able to out-gambit a refic they if it isn't written or delivered effectively. Would it be wrong for her to try to out-gambit a refic attempt?

I'm thinking a lot about the theory of narrative causality, and how that relates to how this plot might play out. What does the play say should happen? It's partly a matter of what people *in* the plot think should happen. Which includes all of us. Or maybe, it'll turn out to be inevitable that someone gets a forced refic through. I'm sure someone will write it. Who will decide, in the end, what will happen?

[eli_gone_crazy]

How much is this a witch hunt, even a sort of Inquisition against the infidel fictionals, combined with a huge misunderstanding about the threat Morgan herself poses?

This isn't a witch hunt on my part. I've sympathized with Morgan up until this point. I'm not looking for flaws where there aren't any.

I've come to understand Morgan as a living and feeling human being. I felt I understood her motivations and mentality. And most of that understanding is knowing that being returned to their fictional worlds is the last thing any of them want. In the past, she's spoken of that prospect as a fate worse than death and has made it clear that she would do ANYTHING to avoid that faith. Though she's also made it clear that she doesn't want to have to resort to villainous means, though she would if she had to. But not once did she mention a condition in which she would be able to willingly submit to that fate. The fact that she would do so so casually in that past e-mail just feels so out of character for me, unlike anything she has said to anybody else ever, and with no indication of any event that may cause a change of heart. Not so much as a "I've been doing some thinking about my previous stance". It just feels so sudden and out of place.

I don't wish to villainize Morgan. I still don't view her that way. But when I see something that feels off, I'm going to point it out, and this feels off. Maybe I'm wrong. I wish I were. But I don't think I am.

I would agree with you wacky, but the majority of my emails to her have been on the subject of refic's; and she really doesn't like them. I guess I may want her to be non-villainous.

I still think there was more to the email than what you reduced it to wacky. :/

[H22]

Well, any quoting is to some extent misquoting.

Morgan, please reply.

[S_o_S]

Call me niave, but.. I don't think she's lying.
She basically said, hey, we want to stay, but we're gonna be useful.
From the emails I have sent and received from her, I don't think she's perfect, but I think she's trying.
and honestly, if the wall falling IS their fault, leaving becomes the best option. Either we make them pay, or some unknown does.

Yeah, I'm with eli on this one to be honest. I really think these people (well, Morgan at least, MAYBE Erik) are trying to change.

[Dryunya]

Guys. When writing about the wall pieces, please mention that we can't seal the wall anymore, until Cthulhu is gone. I don't want them to think that it will help.

[eli_gone_crazy]

morgan will speak with the cabal about helping us.

[Qara-Xuan Zenith]

Gotta say, for someone who said BEFORE our backs were against the wall "If you let us stay we can do SO MUCH to help you", she's waffling a LOT. First as Eli pointed out, focussing on the "told you so" instead of cutting to the point... then "I dunno if I want to help you, let me ask my friends first."

So either her offers of goodwill were NEVER on behalf of the whole Cabal, in which case-- food for thought-- or she has no intention NOW of helping us, unless she decides that it's in HER best interest to do something which also happens to be in ours.

And I'm sure someone's going to yell at me with a "not the time for grudges right now"... to which I say, it's ALWAYS the time. I need to be able to think rationally, and skeptically, about Morgan's offers of help, especially when our backs are against the wall, so we'll know exactly how far we can count on them, and whether we should expect to be under attack from more sides than one.

[Sicon112]

Gotta say, for someone who said BEFORE our backs were against the wall "If you let us stay we can do SO MUCH to help you", she's waffling a LOT. First as Eli pointed out, focussing on the "told you so" instead of cutting to the point... then "I dunno if I want to help you, let me ask my friends first."

So either her offers of goodwill were NEVER on behalf of the whole Cabal, in which case-- food for thought-- or she has no intention NOW of helping us, unless she decides that it's in HER best interest to do something which also happens to be in ours.

And I'm sure someone's going to yell at me with a "not the time for grudges right now"... to which I say, it's ALWAYS the time. I need to be able to think rationally, and skeptically, about Morgan's offers of help, especially when our backs are against the wall, so we'll know exactly how far we can count on them, and whether we should expect to be under attack from more sides than one.

You know, it is possible she had the whole group's consent to send messages of goodwill, but they just so happened to not talk about a contingency plan for Cthulhu, so she needs to reconfirm, especially since we haven't exactly been nice to them. Just saying.

[Dryunya]

I'm still going to refic them.

Meta: and considering the universal chaos and the bending of the rules, there will be some kind of handwave to return the characters if we don't do it. Or maybe they'll agree to a Heroic Sacrifice. Because Status Quo, after all.

or she has no intention NOW of helping us, unless she decides that it's in HER best interest to do something which also happens to be in ours.

That's how it is now, isn't it? We can't seal Cthulhu with the pieces, and we'll have to write the fics. If we fail, we god Cthulhu in reality, and it's hardly in the Cabal's interests.

However, I'm not sure how they can possibly help us. And, guys. Cthulhu and all, this is just one more fic. Maybe more awesome than the others. Nothing we can't handle.

[Blurred_9L]

Gotta say, for someone who said BEFORE our backs were against the wall "If you let us stay we can do SO MUCH to help you", she's waffling a LOT. First as Eli pointed out, focussing on the "told you so" instead of cutting to the point... then "I dunno if I want to help you, let me ask my friends first."

So either her offers of goodwill were NEVER on behalf of the whole Cabal, in which case-- food for thought-- or she has no intention NOW of helping us, unless she decides that it's in HER best interest to do something which also happens to be in ours.

And I'm sure someone's going to yell at me with a "not the time for grudges right now"... to which I say, it's ALWAYS the time. I need to be able to think rationally, and skeptically, about Morgan's offers of help, especially when our backs are against the wall, so we'll know exactly how far we can count on them, and whether we should expect to be under attack from more sides than one.

I'll wait to see what assistance she can offer before we make any judgements, okay?

[Adell]

If they can find some means of aiding us, I have no qualms with it. If they consider our world a world worth protecting, that's all I need to hear. If they're doing this to save their own lives, that's fine too. We need to be willing to work together in times like these. Be skeptical and hold your grudges if you must, but don't deny them a chance to help the world they so desperately what to exist in.

And seriously, if we somehow end up vilifying their attempts to STOP CTHULU, I'm just gonna bang my head against a cement block.

[S_o_S]

So we're entering an Enemy Mine. Well that's just peachy. Sad to say it, but I really think we'll need them to help, and the detectives too, for sure. In the meantime, we just have to wait for her response I suppose...

[Qara-Xuan Zenith]

And seriously, if we somehow end up vilifying their attempts to STOP CTHULU, I'm just gonna bang my head against a cement block.

I will not vilify any attempts they make to stop Cthulhu. And sure, I'll reserve judgement until I see what they do. All I'm saying is I don't like how they're suddenly so wishy-washy about whether they WILL help us stop Cthulhu.