The "sending them back" dilemma

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The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Dryunya on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:06 pm

So it has come to this.

There are some doubts about whether or not we're supposed to send the characters back. It started in the Romeo and Juliet thread, who are inevitably going to die in their story.

As I've mentioned there, my theory about the characters spawning from the "blueprints" behind the wall would mean that by sending the spawned character back, we're essentially killing it. Which means that all our characters as we know them will die at the end. Which is, by the way, backed by the fact that their stories are clearly not going to change - in the best case scenario they are going to have a Laser Guided Amnesia about the whole experience.
But if my theory is correct, they are going to die.

Your Mileage May Vary.
I believe this thread will get more important when we actually approach the ending.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Dryunya on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:08 pm

Oh, and just when I've done with the post, I've found a resolution. :D
As this ARG is a work of fiction, the characters are those from fiction, expanded by the experience IRL. Which means that by sending them back, we are sending them into another fiction, which would be this ARG's canon. Their original blueprints stay where they are. Everyone is happy.
Wow, that's an interesting theory. :gurt:
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby NeverSlender on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:12 pm

We can't answer this without knowing whether stopping them returning to their reality will have adverse effects on our reality. If it did then we don't have the right to decide they can stay, if people who have no idea about it could be harmed.

However if there is no adverse effects to them staying, it comes down to the character. Sending R+J to their deaths would be morally wrong, whereas Quixote is probably better off back in a place where he knows how the world works. We vouldn't really say "they all musy stay" or "they all must go back".

And judging by what I read the other day, I believe so aswell.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby RotavatoR on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:14 pm

Dryunya wrote:Oh, and just when I've done with the post, I've found a resolution. :D
As this ARG is a work of fiction, the characters are those from fiction, expanded by the experience IRL. Which means that by sending them back, we are sending them into another fiction, which would be this ARG's canon. Their original blueprints stay where they are. Everyone is happy.
Wow, that's an interesting theory. :gurt:


What do you mean by "expanded by the experience IRL"? Do you mean that everything they learn here will improve their odds of survival in their story? Or do you think they are copies of their original characters?

Sorry, I'm kinda stupid :mrgreen:
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Scarab on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:16 pm

Yeah, this is really the elephant that's been in the room since we started this whole thing, isn't it?

Point: Joe is recieving threatening letters that may or may not be from scared fictional characters who do not want to go back to where they came from. These actions are amoral and, to use a colloquialism, "not on", but their actions may stem from genuine fear for their lives.
Point: Some of those characters may have VERY good reason not to want to go back - either they knew the future that awaited them, or their lives were pretty much sucky anyway.
Point: All these stories and worlds were created by the actions of humans: people in our world. So basically every thing that ever happened to these characters is our fault in the first place. We made them, but do we have the right to control them?

Of course maybe it's not about our rights at all. Maybe it's just what has to be done. If there's a danger here, an actual threat posed by their being in reality, then they have to go back. We have had no choice but to consider this is the only possibility.There's nothing we can do about it.

But I also feel the need to mention the fact that we still don't entirely know what that threat is, and aside from the chaos being posed by the characters that have already emerged, there have been no sign of reality warping or any other kind of physical damage to the world, at least so far as we're aware. It would be nice to have more clear information as to why and what will happen (or at least some explanations for why the Administrators don't KNOW the answers.) And could we possibly consider that maybe there's another way out of this?

Dryunya wrote:Oh, and just when I've done with the post, I've found a resolution.
As this ARG is a work of fiction, the characters are those from fiction, expanded by the experience IRL. Which means that by sending them back, we are sending them into another fiction, which would be this ARG's canon. Their original blueprints stay where they are. Everyone is happy.
Wow, that's an interesting theory.


And then there's also that. A hopeful theory...
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Dryunya on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:26 pm

RotavatoR wrote:What do you mean by "expanded by the experience IRL"? Do you mean that everything they learn here will improve their odds of survival in their story? Or do you think they are copies of their original characters?

Exactly that. They go to their original stories, but with the knowledge they have received over the course of the ARG. Except that we don't know the outcome of those stories. Hmm, that would also mean they kind of retain free will there. A nifty bonus to a one-of-a-kind experience, I'd say. ;)
And technically, they become different characters. Just like the much-referred-to point of the adaptations, Sherlock Holmes will become "that Sherlock Holmes that totally wanted to kill Hercule Poirot".
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Scarab on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:29 pm

Dryunya wrote:
RotavatoR wrote:What do you mean by "expanded by the experience IRL"? Do you mean that everything they learn here will improve their odds of survival in their story? Or do you think they are copies of their original characters?

Exactly that. They go to their original stories, but with the knowledge they have received over the course of the ARG. Except that we don't know the outcome of those stories. Hmm, that would also mean they kind of retain free will there. A nifty bonus to a one-of-a-kind experience, I'd say. ;)
And technically, they become different characters. Just like the much-referred-to point of the adaptations, Sherlock Holmes will become "that Sherlock Holmes that totally wanted to kill Hercule Poirot".


So then, a bit like what happened to the characters in the Fables comic series then? They got whole new lives for themselves in the modern day world.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby RotavatoR on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:43 pm

Dryunya wrote:
RotavatoR wrote:What do you mean by "expanded by the experience IRL"? Do you mean that everything they learn here will improve their odds of survival in their story? Or do you think they are copies of their original characters?

Exactly that. They go to their original stories, but with the knowledge they have received over the course of the ARG. Except that we don't know the outcome of those stories. Hmm, that would also mean they kind of retain free will there. A nifty bonus to a one-of-a-kind experience, I'd say. ;)
And technically, they become different characters. Just like the much-referred-to point of the adaptations, Sherlock Holmes will become "that Sherlock Holmes that totally wanted to kill Hercule Poirot".

This is brilliant. We can save Romeo and Juliet...
"Dude, she's faking it."
Just like that.
(EDIT to make this a not-completely useless post)
If they keep all the knowledge they obtain here, there might not be a dilemma in the sense that they will not die. Unless their memories will be wiped of course. Or the fictional world makes it so that death and consequences cannot be avoided
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby NeverSlender on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:48 pm

If they can't read their on stories I think it's unlikely we can tell them spoilers.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby RotavatoR on Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:06 pm

I guess I was reading a bit too much into Scarab's theory. But maybe that is a true theory...
It's so frustrating that I know what I'm thinking but am not able to put it into words :(
Anyways, we have only tried once to let a character read his own story, it might pay off to try it again, or with adaptations of stories.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Scarab on Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:47 pm

NeverSlender wrote:If they can't read their on stories I think it's unlikely we can tell them spoilers.

This is true but perhaps, as RotavatoR said, we just have to be a bit more clever about it.

RotavatoR wrote:I guess I was reading a bit too much into Scarab's theory. But maybe that is a true theory...
It's so frustrating that I know what I'm thinking but am not able to put it into words
Anyways, we have only tried once to let a character read his own story, it might pay off to try it again, or with adaptations of stories.


Tell me about it. it's like there's some kind of blockage between my brain and my mouth, sometimes.

yeah regarding adaptations: Maybe we could tell them stories that are BASED on their stories. I mean, there are variations on Romeo and Juliet that aren't actually Romeo and Juliet - could they watch West Side Story and understand it, for example?
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby JackAlsworth on Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:53 pm

Scarab wrote:yeah regarding adaptations: Maybe we could tell them stories that are BASED on their stories. I mean, there are variations on Romeo and Juliet that aren't actually Romeo and Juliet - could they watch West Side Story and understand it, for example?


First person to suggest "Tromeo and Juliet" gets slapped with a wet haddock.

OT: That is an interesting theory. Someone want to bring it up to either of them? "Hey, there's this cool play you should watch..." (Maybe we should imply it has lolcats in it. :)) Worst case scenario, they say, "Nah, that sounds boring," and we try a different route.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Scarab on Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:55 pm

JackAlsworth wrote:
Scarab wrote:yeah regarding adaptations: Maybe we could tell them stories that are BASED on their stories. I mean, there are variations on Romeo and Juliet that aren't actually Romeo and Juliet - could they watch West Side Story and understand it, for example?


First person to suggest "Tromeo and Juliet" gets slapped with a wet haddock.

OT: That is an interesting theory. Someone want to bring it up to either of them? "Hey, there's this cool play you should watch..." (Maybe we should imply it has lolcats in it. :)) Worst case scenario, they say, "Nah, that sounds boring," and we try a different route.


I'm on the case with 'em right now!
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby RotavatoR on Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:56 pm

I was gonna mention the Lion King 2, but in that movie the happy lovelions don't die, so that won't work.

...

Also they are lions.

I think we should ask Mr cAke about this :ugeek:
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby IslaKariese on Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:57 pm

So, just to clarify, are Romeo and Juliet the only ones who want to go back at this point?
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Sicon112 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:58 pm

IslaKariese wrote:So, just to clarify, are Romeo and Juliet the only ones who want to go back at this point?


Both detectives have expressed a desire to go back, as well as Quixote. Gulliver probably does as well, but who knows about LJS. Maybe he is enjoying his time as a kleptomaniac too much.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby WackyMeetsPractical on Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:04 pm

JackAlsworth wrote:OT: That is an interesting theory. Someone want to bring it up to either of them? "Hey, there's this cool play you should watch..." (Maybe we should imply it has lolcats in it. :)) Worst case scenario, they say, "Nah, that sounds boring," and we try a different route.


Why not show them this? http://www.collegehumor.com/video/39833 ... iet-in-lol
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Scarab on Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:06 pm

WackyMeetsPractical wrote:
JackAlsworth wrote:OT: That is an interesting theory. Someone want to bring it up to either of them? "Hey, there's this cool play you should watch..." (Maybe we should imply it has lolcats in it. :)) Worst case scenario, they say, "Nah, that sounds boring," and we try a different route.


Why not show them this? http://www.collegehumor.com/video/39833 ... iet-in-lol


Well I already suggested West Side Story to them (which... feels a little mean actually) but yeah :?
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Pixelmage on Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:14 pm

Sicon112 wrote:
IslaKariese wrote:So, just to clarify, are Romeo and Juliet the only ones who want to go back at this point?


Both detectives have expressed a desire to go back, as well as Quixote. Gulliver probably does as well, but who knows about LJS. Maybe he is enjoying his time as a kleptomaniac too much.


But if I remmember correctly, the lovers are the only ones who said anything about trying to go back... We don't know what is it that they "tried" yet.

But you know... I thought about this while reading and was expecting epic levels of "I Made Myself Sad" do pop up... But I really like the idea Dryu posted. Extrapolating on that...

We could say our little ARG here is itself a work of fiction, correct? In that case, we don't need to send the characters form here back to their fictional cannon. We can send this whole ARG over the wall! That way, the characters spawned here will become adaptations of their originals in this new cannon and can seek endings. Aware or not of the original ending.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Scarab on Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:22 pm

Pixelmage wrote:
Sicon112 wrote:
IslaKariese wrote:So, just to clarify, are Romeo and Juliet the only ones who want to go back at this point?


Both detectives have expressed a desire to go back, as well as Quixote. Gulliver probably does as well, but who knows about LJS. Maybe he is enjoying his time as a kleptomaniac too much.


But if I remmember correctly, the lovers are the only ones who said anything about trying to go back... We don't know what is it that they "tried" yet.

But you know... I thought about this while reading and was expecting epic levels of "I Made Myself Sad" do pop up... But I really like the idea Dryu posted. Extrapolating on that...

We could say our little ARG here is itself a work of fiction, correct? In that case, we don't need to send the characters form here back to their fictional cannon. We can send this whole ARG over the wall! That way, the characters spawned here will become adaptations of their originals in this new cannon and can seek endings. Aware or not of the original ending.


So we get out of this without having to kill anybody? I am completely and totally down with that plan! :D
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby RotavatoR on Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:26 pm

Pixelmage wrote:
Sicon112 wrote:
IslaKariese wrote:So, just to clarify, are Romeo and Juliet the only ones who want to go back at this point?


Both detectives have expressed a desire to go back, as well as Quixote. Gulliver probably does as well, but who knows about LJS. Maybe he is enjoying his time as a kleptomaniac too much.


But if I remmember correctly, the lovers are the only ones who said anything about trying to go back... We don't know what is it that they "tried" yet.

But you know... I thought about this while reading and was expecting epic levels of "I Made Myself Sad" do pop up... But I really like the idea Dryu posted. Extrapolating on that...

We could say our little ARG here is itself a work of fiction, correct? In that case, we don't need to send the characters form here back to their fictional cannon. We can send this whole ARG over the wall! That way, the characters spawned here will become adaptations of their originals in this new cannon and can seek endings. Aware or not of the original ending.


This may mean that they will be even more lonely than they are right now. They still won't be back in their own world, and they'll miss all the characters they had in that own world.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Sicon112 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:37 pm

Doesn't that mean we trap ourselves on the other side of the fourth wall, though?
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Victin on Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:39 pm

Sicon112 wrote:Doesn't that mean we trap ourselves on the other side of the fourth wall, though?

My first thought.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby WackyMeetsPractical on Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:42 pm

The levels of meta in this thread is overwhelming.

Let's try to keep things as simple as possible. Characters are breaking through. They're not supposed to be here. We need to patch up the walls before something bad comes through, like, say, Godzilla. But we can't do that until we send everyone who's already gone through back, even the ones with unhappy endings. They're fictional, so whether they die or live or become a part of a new story is inconsequential. Our only concern at this point is to find them all and figure out a way to send them back. If that's not our mission, then what is? Why are we even here?
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby NeverSlender on Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:44 pm

WackyMeetsPractical wrote:The levels of meta in this thread is overwhelming.

Let's try to keep things as simple as possible. Characters are breaking through. They're not supposed to be here. We need to patch up the walls before something bad comes through, like, say, Godzilla. But we can't do that until we send everyone who's already gone through back, even the ones with unhappy endings. They're fictional, so whether they die or live or become a part of a new story is inconsequential. Our only concern at this point is to find them all and figure out a way to send them back. If that's not our mission, then what is? Why are we even here?


To be honest our mission from Mr. A always seems to be "AWAIT FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS WHILE I GATHER INFORMATION" and it's starting to get on my nerves.
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