The "sending them back" dilemma

[Sicon112]

Ok, you've Logic Bombed me. To resolve this, we need to put this onto the metaverse model and see if it fits.
Maybe later. It's pretty late here. =/

Relax Dryu. Fitting it with the meta-verse model makes things make more sense. If' I understand what he is saying correctly, the ARG is about cracks in the fourth wall, but looking from a meta level IN COMPARISON to the ARG, the ARG ITSELF is fictional. However, what he fails to account for is that the level he is looking from is disconnected from the metaverse model, since in normal reality outside of the ARG, there is no fourth wall to be cracked. Therefore, within the ARG, the realm we are dealing with, the ARG is on the top level of reality, and therefore is not a piece of fiction, and anyway, it could not fall through the fourth wall inside itself, because it would instead fall through the fourth wall to the layer above it.

However, if we fictionalize the ARG within the ARG, (a weird thought) by moving it across the fourth wall from the top layer of reality to the layer below, the damage to the fourth wall is translated over to the fourth wall between the ARG subverse and the ARG subverse's fiction. However, since that wall is PART of a fiction one layer down from us, we have direct control over it, assuming we can gain the power of cannon. Therefore, we can then repair all damage and reality warp everything to end exactly as we want it.

[RotavatoR]

I'm sorry, I've missed heaps of discussion so I might stumble upon something which you've discussed a while ago. But I never said we had to decide on this now. I just think we should further expore the possibilities and, most notably, the impossibilities.

Because I just realized something: Fixing the crack would not at all enable us to fictionalize the ARG and seal it behind the Fourth Wall. That is because this action (and therefore the Fourth Wall) would become part of the ARG. This means that you would basically be sealing the Fourth Wall behind itself.

[Sicon112]

I'm sorry, I've missed heaps of discussion so I might stumble upon something which you've discussed a while ago. But I never said we had to decide on this now. I just think we should further expore the possibilities and, most notably, the impossibilities.

Because I just realized something: Fixing the crack would not at all enable us to fictionalize the ARG and seal it behind the Fourth Wall. That is because this action (and therefore the Fourth Wall) would become part of the ARG. This means that you would basically be sealing the Fourth Wall behind itself.

Here, I don't think you have seen this yet, judging by your comments. I give you the Meta-verse model, created by the labor and Mind Screw of me and Dryu with helpful input from everyone else that was on at the time.

[NeverSlender]

Ok, you've Logic Bombed me. To resolve this, we need to put this onto the metaverse model and see if it fits.
Maybe later. It's pretty late here. =/

Relax Dryu. Fitting it with the meta-verse model makes things make more sense. If' I understand what he is saying correctly, the ARG is about cracks in the fourth wall, but looking from a meta level IN COMPARISON to the ARG, the ARG ITSELF is fictional. However, what he fails to account for is that the level he is looking from is disconnected from the metaverse model, since in normal reality outside of the ARG, there is no fourth wall to be cracked. Therefore, within the ARG, the realm we are dealing with, the ARG is on the top level of reality, and therefore is not a piece of fiction, and anyway, it could not fall through the fourth wall inside itself, because it would instead fall through the fourth wall to the layer above it.

However, if we fictionalize the ARG within the ARG, (a weird thought) by moving it across the fourth wall from the top layer of reality to the layer below, the damage to the fourth wall is translated over to the fourth wall between the ARG subverse and the ARG subverse's fiction. However, since that wall is PART of a fiction one layer down from us, we have direct control over it, assuming we can gain the power of cannon. Therefore, we can then repair all damage and reality warp everything to end exactly as we want it.

Sorry to say but we have no idea whether anything in that last paragraph is correct or even possible. If it was that easy to fix the wall, we wouldn't be needed. It's the fourth wall for our reality that's cracked. Moving the ARG down a level will not move the wall.

[RotavatoR]

Thanks for the link, I haven't read that yet. As for your previous post, I agree with the first part, and maybe the Meta-verse model will help me understand the second part.

[Sicon112]

Sorry to say but we have no idea whether anything in that last paragraph is correct or even possible. If it was that easy to fix the wall, we wouldn't be needed. It's the fourth wall for our reality that's cracked. Moving the ARG down a level will not move the wall.

Even assuming it DOESN'T fix our wall, it launches EVERY SINGLE THING that has slipped over here, characters included, one level down in reality. Therefore, we can then just seal up the cracks right after and we are all fixed up.

[Sicon112]

Thanks for the link, I haven't read that yet. As for your previous post, I agree with the first part, and maybe the Meta-verse model will help me understand the second part.

Make sure to read the whole thread, as the original concept is revised as we go.

[NeverSlender]

Sorry to say but we have no idea whether anything in that last paragraph is correct or even possible. If it was that easy to fix the wall, we wouldn't be needed. It's the fourth wall for our reality that's cracked. Moving the ARG down a level will not move the wall.

Even assuming it DOESN'T fix our wall, it launches EVERY SINGLE THING that has slipped over here, characters included, one level down in reality. Therefore, we can then just seal up the cracks right after and we are all fixed up.

1. In Echo Chamber, while Tom and Dana became fictional they continued to exist in our world. Sending the ARG down one level would fictionalise it, but it would still exist on the top level.

2. It took over a year to fictionalise two characters. So far we have ten, and probably more on the way.

[Sicon112]

1. In Echo Chamber, while Tom and Dana became fictional they continued to exist in our world. Sending the ARG down one level would fictionalise it, but it would still exist on the top level.

2. It took over a year to fictionalise two characters. So far we have ten, and probably more on the way.

As far as I can tell, there is no time limit on fictionalization. It should differ with every method and every number of people; hell even with the personalities and various levels of Suspension Of Disbelief among the involved parties. Second, while WE would remain here, fictional copies of us would go down one level, and all the POIs would as well, since they are ALREADY fictional, and therefor not directly connected to the world.

[NeverSlender]

1. In Echo Chamber, while Tom and Dana became fictional they continued to exist in our world. Sending the ARG down one level would fictionalise it, but it would still exist on the top level.

2. It took over a year to fictionalise two characters. So far we have ten, and probably more on the way.

As far as I can tell, there is no time limit on fictionalization. It should differ with every method and every number of people; hell even with the personalities and various levels of Suspension Of Disbelief among the involved parties. Second, while WE would remain here, fictional copies of us would go down one level, and all the POIs would as well, since they are ALREADY fictional, and therefor not directly connected to the world.

While the POIs are in our world, they are real, so we would be creating fictional versions of fictional characters. The ones that have come through wouldn't disappear.

[Victin]

Can't something just be fictional and real without any other layer? What's stopping that? Also, why are there layers of fiction (I forgot what you guys said in the discussion thread about it, so if is already explained, don't blame me, blame my brain)

[NeverSlender]

Can't something just be fictional and real without any other layer? What's stopping that? Also, why are there layers of fiction (I forgot what you guys said in the discussion thread about it, so if is already explained, don't blame me, blame my brain)

The layers thing is from Echo Chamber.

[Sicon112]

While the POIs are in our world, they are real, so we would be creating fictional versions of fictional characters. The ones that have come through wouldn't disappear.

Unlikely. Part of the issue is that their mere EXISTENCE on this plane of reality is damaging it further, therefor, their natures are inherently contradictory. If we go by that assumption, it is likely that they will be dropped back a layer once the ARG is fictionalized.

[RotavatoR]

Can't something just be fictional and real without any other layer? What's stopping that

Well, some people want to keep the characters in the ARG safe by placing the complete ARG between fiction and reality. At least, that's what my understanding is. This would require a new layer, between fiction and reality.

[NeverSlender]

Can't something just be fictional and real without any other layer? What's stopping that

Well, some people want to keep the characters in the ARG safe by placing the complete ARG between fiction and reality. At least, that's what my understanding is. This would require a new layer, between fiction and reality.

Not quite, you'll need to watch Echo Chamber to know what we're on about:

[RotavatoR]

Can't something just be fictional and real without any other layer? What's stopping that

Well, some people want to keep the characters in the ARG safe by placing the complete ARG between fiction and reality. At least, that's what my understanding is. This would require a new layer, between fiction and reality.

Not quite, you'll need to watch Echo Chamber to know what we're on about:

Whoops >.<
Any specific episodes I need to watch? Or is it more of an overarching plot I've been missing?

[NeverSlender]

Whoops >.<
Any specific episodes I need to watch? Or is it more of an overarching plot I've been missing?

Watching the whole thing wouod help, but at the very least you need to see the Mind Screw episode.

[NeverSlender]

While the POIs are in our world, they are real, so we would be creating fictional versions of fictional characters. The ones that have come through wouldn't disappear.

Unlikely. Part of the issue is that their mere EXISTENCE on this plane of reality is damaging it further, therefor, their natures are inherently contradictory. If we go by that assumption, it is likely that they will be dropped back a layer once the ARG is fictionalized.

But we have no proof. Even if they did, the cracks in the wall will remain an it's not just as simple as "we fictionalise the wall ARG and then fix the wall". If there was a way to fix it that was known, there would be no need for the ARG.

[Sicon112]

Watching the whole thing wouod help, but at the very least you need to see the Mind Screw episode.

I've seen none. I just catch on quick to the depth of recursion and such. Also, I have a pretty good idea of the content of the show even without seeing it, so that helps.

But we have no proof. Even if they did, the cracks in the wall will remain an it's not just as simple as "we fictionalise the wall ARG and then fix the wall". If there was a way to fix it that was known, there would be no need for the ARG.

Exactly, which is why we wait till we know how to fix the wall to fictionalize the ARG. Until then, we use the ARG to hold back the total collapse of the wall. We use the ARG as a tool, then when we finish, we store it away.

[NeverSlender]

Watching the whole thing wouod help, but at the very least you need to see the Mind Screw episode.

I've seen none. I just catch on quick to the depth of recursion and such. Also, I have a pretty good idea of the content of the show even without seeing it, so that helps.

[quote="NeverSlender"But we have no proof. Even if they did, the cracks in the wall will remain an it's not just as simple as "we fictionalise the wall ARG and then fix the wall". If there was a way to fix it that was known, there would be no need for the ARG.

Exactly, which is why we wait till we know how to fix the wall to fictionalize the ARG. Until then, we use the ARG to hold back the total collapse of the wall. We use the ARG as a tool, then when we finish, we store it away.[/quote]

Yes but like I said, we don't know how long it would take to fictionalise everything. We have a precedent, two characters took about a year. Even assuming the time it takes varies we would have to fictionalise everything to do with the ARG. That means all the characters and all of the players. It could be hundreds of people by the time we reach the endgame.

[Sicon112]

Yes but like I said, we don't know how long it would take to fictionalise everything. We have a precedent, two characters took about a year. Even assuming the time it takes varies we would have to fictionalise everything to do with the ARG. That means all the characters and all of the players. It could be hundreds of people by the time we reach the endgame.

But were Tom and Dana actively trying to fictionalize THEMSELVES, or was Mr. A manipulating them? Also, with the giant hole in the wall, wouldn't travel in BOTH directions be easier? Finally, the characters should be no problem to fictionalize, because their nature seems to remain fictional. And, in a way, the characters that we portray on the internet are also partially fictional. Perhaps it took so long for Tom and Dana BECAUSE they were being Tom and Dana, while instead I am not being the person I am, I am being Sicon112.

[NeverSlender]

Yes but like I said, we don't know how long it would take to fictionalise everything. We have a precedent, two characters took about a year. Even assuming the time it takes varies we would have to fictionalise everything to do with the ARG. That means all the characters and all of the players. It could be hundreds of people by the time we reach the endgame.

But were Tom and Dana actively trying to fictionalize THEMSELVES, or was Mr. A manipulating them? Also, with the giant hole in the wall, wouldn't travel in BOTH directions be easier? Finally, the characters should be no problem to fictionalize, because their nature seems to remain fictional. And, in a way, the characters that we portray on the internet are also partially fictional. Perhaps it took so long for Tom and Dana BECAUSE they were being Tom and Dana, while instead I am not being the person I am, I am being Sicon112.

It was kind of both. Mr. A told them to make the vlog, and it was making the vlog that made them fictional. And it isn't a huge hole in the wall. It's loads and loads of tiny cracks that, so far, only seem to let through one character at a time. Plus, while the people most involved could be said to portraying characters, the same can't be said for people on the periphery who only have a passing interest or were involved but left. They are also part of the ARG.

[Sicon112]

It was kind of both. Mr. A told them to make the vlog, and it was making the vlog that made them fictional. And it isn't a huge hole in the wall. It's loads and loads of tiny cracks that, so far, only seem to let through one character at a time. Plus, while the people most involved could be said to portraying characters, the same can't be said for people on the periphery who only have a passing interest or were involved but left. They are also part of the ARG.

But wouldn't it be easier to get bit-characters across the wall anyway? Less info to transfer.

As to the cracks, by the time we figure out how to fix this, things are going to be a HELL of a lot worse...

[NeverSlender]

It was kind of both. Mr. A told them to make the vlog, and it was making the vlog that made them fictional. And it isn't a huge hole in the wall. It's loads and loads of tiny cracks that, so far, only seem to let through one character at a time. Plus, while the people most involved could be said to portraying characters, the same can't be said for people on the periphery who only have a passing interest or were involved but left. They are also part of the ARG.

But wouldn't it be easier to get bit-characters across the wall anyway? Less info to transfer.

As to the cracks, by the time we figure out how to fix this, things are going to be a HELL of a lot worse...

Again, if it was that easy to get the characters back across the wall there wouldn't be an ARG as there would be no need for it.

[Scarab]

But wouldn't it be easier to get bit-characters across the wall anyway? Less info to transfer.

As to the cracks, by the time we figure out how to fix this, things are going to be a HELL of a lot worse...

Again, if it was that easy to get the characters back across the wall there wouldn't be an ARG as there would be no need for it.

I always thought it was the case that only the characters with the MOST age and influence are currently able to get through what are currently relatively small cracks in the Wall, because they have the most development and are the strongest personality wise. They'd have more influence and ergo more power to interfere with out world. The wider the cracks, the more insignificant characters can leak through.