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I think the meta reason we have these characters is because they are in the public domain, but that's a pretty decent in-universe justification.

Scarab wrote:

NeverSlender wrote:But wouldn't it be easier to get bit-characters across the wall anyway? Less info to transfer.

As to the cracks, by the time we figure out how to fix this, things are going to be a HELL of a lot worse...

Again, if it was that easy to get the characters back across the wall there wouldn't be an ARG as there would be no need for it.

I always thought it was the case that only the characters with the MOST age and influence are currently able to get through what are currently relatively small cracks in the Wall, because they have the most development and are the strongest personality wise. They'd have more influence and ergo more power to interfere with out world. The wider the cracks, the more insignificant characters can leak through.

I'm not really sure about that... Yes, I did dabble in patterns for a few hours but I was afraid of wrecking the plotline, so I stopped. So far we don't even know what rules the crossing. My guess is a Real entity arbitrarily pulling each character through, but I don't really have a model to support that idea. Without actually having more information we're stuck.

NeverSlender wrote:I think the meta reason we have these characters is because they are in the public domain, but that's a pretty decent in-universe justification.

Poirot is not. At least some of his books are still under copyright, so that point gets muddy... All the others are fully Public Domain though.

Pixelmage wrote:

Scarab wrote:

NeverSlender wrote:But wouldn't it be easier to get bit-characters across the wall anyway? Less info to transfer.

As to the cracks, by the time we figure out how to fix this, things are going to be a HELL of a lot worse...

Again, if it was that easy to get the characters back across the wall there wouldn't be an ARG as there would be no need for it.

I always thought it was the case that only the characters with the MOST age and influence are currently able to get through what are currently relatively small cracks in the Wall, because they have the most development and are the strongest personality wise. They'd have more influence and ergo more power to interfere with out world. The wider the cracks, the more insignificant characters can leak through.

I'm not really sure about that... Yes, I did dabble in patterns for a few hours but I was afraid of wrecking the plotline, so I stopped. So far we don't even know what rules the crossing. My guess is a Real entity arbitrarily pulling each character through, but I don't really have a model to support that idea. Without actually having more information we're stuck.

NeverSlender wrote:I think the meta reason we have these characters is because they are in the public domain, but that's a pretty decent in-universe justification.

Poirot is not. At least some of his books are still under copyright, so that point gets muddy... All the others are fully Public Domain though.

Would the public domain books stop around Death on the Nile? Cos that's the part of the story he's from.

NeverSlender wrote:Would the public domain books stop around Death on the Nile? Cos that's the part of the story he's from.

As far as I can tell, no.
I've found only "The Mysterious Affair at Styles" and "Secret Adversary" as Public Domain by Agatha Christie. And I'm not even sure that second book stars Poirot. "The Mysterious Affair at Styles" is his first case.

Maybe you guys can explain this to a confused lurker, but how exactly would fictionalizing the ARG fix anything? I mean if this whole thing becomes fictional, then we have a fictional world where "fictional characters have infiltrated reality," right? In the canon of that world, characters who want to go home never get home. The fourth wall remains broken, and eventually Godzilla could come through and eat the Romeo and Juliet everyone seemed so determined to save 8 pages ago.

Stepping back, the rules of the game world are established by the PMs. It sounds like what you're talking about is fictionalizing the game to change its rules, i.e. hijacking it from the PMs. I don't think that would go over well. =/ If it becomes fictional without us changing the rules, then it's the same as abandoning the actual ARG. Maybe I'm misinterpreting how everything works, but it sounds more like walking away from the problem than an actual solution...

ToMorning wrote:Maybe you guys can explain this to a confused lurker, but how exactly would fictionalizing the ARG fix anything? I mean if this whole thing becomes fictional, then we have a fictional world where "fictional characters have infiltrated reality," right? In the canon of that world, characters who want to go home never get home. The fourth wall remains broken, and eventually Godzilla could come through and eat the Romeo and Juliet everyone seemed so determined to save 8 pages ago.

Stepping back, the rules of the game world are established by the PMs. It sounds like what you're talking about is fictionalizing the game to change its rules, i.e. hijacking it from the PMs. I don't think that would go over well. =/ If it becomes fictional without us changing the rules, then it's the same as abandoning the actual ARG. Maybe I'm misinterpreting how everything works, but it sounds more like walking away from the problem than an actual solution...

...Lurker's got a point here, folks.

At the moment we don't know how to repair the wall: that's the problem keeping this admittedly desperate plan from working at all anyway. I mean, in a completely seperate fictional ARG world at least R&R would have a chance... but then again so would all the guys who have done horrible things. The demon barber for example...

Although frankly at this moment we're completely at the beck and call of the PM's, and doing so with little to no information. Trying to come up with alternate solutions because they have not yet presented us with any doesn't seem entirely unreasonable. After all Mister A did say early on: they wanted us to be observant. That's why we were recruited.

We're just having a bit of a moral struggle, is all.

ToMorning wrote:Maybe you guys can explain this to a confused lurker, but how exactly would fictionalizing the ARG fix anything? I mean if this whole thing becomes fictional, then we have a fictional world where "fictional characters have infiltrated reality," right? In the canon of that world, characters who want to go home never get home. The fourth wall remains broken, and eventually Godzilla could come through and eat the Romeo and Juliet everyone seemed so determined to save 8 pages ago.

Stepping back, the rules of the game world are established by the PMs. It sounds like what you're talking about is fictionalizing the game to change its rules, i.e. hijacking it from the PMs. I don't think that would go over well. =/ If it becomes fictional without us changing the rules, then it's the same as abandoning the actual ARG. Maybe I'm misinterpreting how everything works, but it sounds more like walking away from the problem than an actual solution...

You're spot on actually. Which is why we decided on this course of action:
Play on as if this thread never existed. When we learn how to fix the wall and/or send the characters back. We come back here to double check if we can follow the plan through or not.

The idea of sending the ARG over the wall now is pointless. It's effectively saying: We're bored. No more ARG. So we'll keep this going. Then, say we can seal the wall and keep the lovers safe. Have Sicon deepfry the Witch and all that.... Then we seal off the wall and send the, then concluded, ARG over.

HOW: We have no fucking clue. That's why, for now, we wait.

Make the ARG Fiction. Trap those characters behind a new fourth wall, and they will be happy.... that's what we all agreed on at the moment. We could pass off the ARG as a story we all worked on. Even Mr. A could be fictional.

Well, it would be good- Holmes and Poirot would be solving cases, Quixote would be happy exploring the modern world, The Witch would be running for President/Wizard, Silver and Gulliver would be exploring countries, Romeo and Juliet would end up together and not dead, and Sweeney would be running a barber shop.

However, we would still have a problem- how are we going to cope with people still seeing "fictional characters", and some of the characters may miss their homes.

The Wild West Pyro wrote:Make the ARG Fiction. Trap those characters behind a new fourth wall, and they will be happy.... that's what we all agreed on at the moment. We could pass off the ARG as a story we all worked on. Even Mr. A could be fictional.
Well, it would be good- Holmes and Poirot would be solving cases, Quixote would be happy exploring the modern world, The Witch would be running for President/Wizard, Silver and Gulliver would be exploring countries, Romeo and Juliet would end up together and not dead, and Sweeney would be running a barber shop.
However, we would still have a problem- how are we going to cope with people still seeing "fictional characters", and some of the characters may miss their homes.

Yeah we also have to consider the possibility - how real would it actually feel to THEM? These people who are no longer in the place they thought was real (that WAS real for them, I guess) being told they're gonna be shipped off into some pocket universe with a bunch of other characters, some of whom aren't very nice, because we don't know what to do with them?

...Perhaps, at the very least they could be given a choice - lay all the information in front of them about what will happen to them if they return and let them CHOOSE whether or not to go back?

Scarab wrote:Yeah we also have to consider the possibility - how real would it actually feel to THEM? These people who are no longer in the place they thought was real (that WAS real for them, I guess) being told they're gonna be shipped off into some pocket universe with a bunch of other characters, some of whom aren't very nice, because we don't know what to do with them?

...Perhaps, at the very least they could be given a choice - lay all the information in front of them about what will happen to them if they return and let them CHOOSE whether or not to go back?

The free choice is the optimal course of action. But, about going back, as long as we can read their stories while they're here, then they can't really go back, because the originals are still there. The ones here are instances of the originals imprinted with whatever knowledge they gathered so far and will keep aquiring. That makes them different from the ones in the books. No stranger to here than they'll be to their cannon should they go back with the learned experience. And if they don't keep the experience, this is all pointless because the end will have no change at all. I'm paraphrasing Dryu's Blueprint Theory here, surely his explanation is a lot more clean, but this is the general idea.

All this confusion about fictionalization probably means people weren't paying attention to my beautiful Wall Of Text.

Well then, let me build another one.

I wanted to make another numbered list, but it turns out the quote tag eats up the list item tag.

The fictionalization is technically possible at any time, but that means ending the game. We don't want to end the game until the plot comes there. This

Sicon112 wrote:we use the ARG to hold back the total collapse of the wall. We use the ARG as a tool, then when we finish, we store it away.

is a good justification.

NeverSlender wrote:we don't know how long it would take to fictionalise everything. We have a precedent, two characters took about a year.

We use different ways of fictionalization. They were fictionalized by pushing the tropes through the wall and making a Show Within A Show, and stuff (I don't really understand it completely). This ARG - we have to face it - is already fictional. Our "fictionalization" basically means accepting that.

Pixelmage wrote:My guess is a Real entity arbitrarily pulling each character through, but I don't really have a model to
support that idea.

That's not really on topic of my rant, but that's entirely possible (and does not contradict the accepted model). We should acquire more information.

ToMorning wrote:Maybe you guys can explain this to a confused lurker, but how exactly would fictionalizing the ARG fix anything? I mean if this whole thing becomes fictional, then we have a fictional world where "fictional characters have infiltrated reality," right? In the canon of that world, characters who want to go home never get home. The fourth wall remains broken, and eventually Godzilla could come through and eat the Romeo and Juliet everyone seemed so determined to save 8 pages ago.

I believe I mentioned that. There are 2 outcomes:

1. We go with the plot and restore the wall - that's our Golden Ending. We send back the characters we choose, some may probably stay (debatable, but it was mentioned on the Wall Of Text), everyone is happy.
   
2. We fail to go with the plot, the wall is about to crumble, the world is doomed - we fictionalize it the way it is, and try to enforce our canon (as we already accepted the ARG to be fictional by then) to make things better - retcon the deaths, write a Happy Ending, and so on. As I said, though, I don't know how to make Mr. A accept our canon, beside threatening to stop playing.
   

ToMorning wrote:Stepping back, the rules of the game world are established by the PMs. It sounds like what you're talking about is fictionalizing the game to change its rules, i.e. hijacking it from the PMs. I don't think that would go over well. =/ If it becomes fictional without us changing the rules, then it's the same as abandoning the actual ARG. Maybe I'm misinterpreting how everything works, but it sounds more like walking away from the problem than an actual solution...

Indeed. Now that I think about it, fictionalizing the ARG by ourselves is more of a last resort to get the ending we like more - after all, when the ARG ends the way it's envisioned by the GMs, it gets fictionalized anyway: we create that "after-party thread" and discuss the game as a game. However, making it an ending by itself is actually an interesting concept, and, as I said, goes well l with the Echo Chamber. Shrodinger's Gun is still in order - we don't know the ending plotted by GMs, but if they come to like ours, they may pull a Sure, Why Not, and play along.

The Wild West Pyro wrote:However, we would still have a problem- how are we going to cope with people still seeing "fictional characters", and some of the characters may miss their homes.

I've made an extensive explanation on which characters may go, and which may not. Basically, if a character can keep a low profile after the ARG's end, he may stay, because he doesn't really violate the Status Quo. And if we stick with the fictionalization course, it doesn't really matter - we may say we ended up with the world where people sometimes meet weird people who look like well-known characters. But we shouldn't, that's a cheap ending.

Scarab wrote:...Perhaps, at the very least they could be given a choice - lay all the information in front of them about what will happen to them if they return and let them CHOOSE whether or not to go back?

Isn't that our plan? If they may be given a choice (like, if the fate of the universe does not hinge on it), they will be given a choice. If they come to regret it later - well, that's their choice, not ours.

Pixelmage wrote:You're spot on actually. Which is why we decided on this course of action:
Play on as if this thread never existed. When we learn how to fix the wall and/or send the characters back. We come back here to double check if we can follow the plan through or not.

The idea of sending the ARG over the wall now is pointless. It's effectively saying: We're bored. No more ARG. So we'll keep this going. Then, say we can seal the wall and keep the lovers safe. Have Sicon deepfry the Witch and all that.... Then we seal off the wall and send the, then concluded, ARG over.

Pixelmage says it all. As I said, legit ending fictionalizes the ARG as well. Fictionalizing it by ourselves is essentially making our own ending.

Oh, and one more thing.
"Cannon" is something you shoot with. The next troper who says "cannon" instead of "canon" gets Gannon Banned.

Why do people keep saying we can make a new fourth wall? That's not how fiction works. I can only assume you mean fictionalising the ARG will give it it's own wall, but Mr. A always refers to THE fourth wall. That means one wall separating reality from every work of fiction, which will include the ARG. It's pretty much the only established rule of this ARG. So if we fictionalise the ARG, that will not effect the wall.

You still don't get it? But... but... but my Walls Of Text!

Dryunya wrote:Why don't you still get it? But... but... but my Walls Of Text!

I get the theory of fictionalising the ARG, but it's "the fourth wall is breaking" not "each and every fourth wall is breaking". The ARG would be behind the same cracked wall.

I guess I'll just draw another fancy model when I get home. That should convince you.

Dryunya wrote:I guess I'll just draw another fancy model when I get home. That should convince you.

Make sure it answers this as well:

IF, and that's a big if, each fictional work has its individual wall, they are all cracking, and the cracks are getting bigger. This would mean that whatever is cracking the walls is still acting, and our "new" fourth wall would soon be cracked.

Like I said there is only ONE fourth wall, but if you want a model it has to account for every possibility.

EDIT: Mr. As advert on TV Tropes proves my point that the ARG is only just getting started, there's a long way to go. Who knows, this theory may get shown as possible/ impossible. Or we might, you know, like the ending they have planned.

Not that I have any prior knowledge about the ending. That would be ridiculous.

Victin wrote:wait, I got here from the Timeline, so... What exactly you plan by "fictionalizing" the ARG? And how do you plan to do that?

It would not be impossible for someone to chronicle it in novel form, I think. Even I could do it given time.

Jeroic9 wrote:

Victin wrote:wait, I got here from the Timeline, so... What exactly you plan by "fictionalizing" the ARG? And how do you plan to do that?

It would not be impossible for someone to chronicle it in novel form, I think. Even I could do it given time.

Yeah but by the time you're done, the ARG will probably have ended.

NeverSlender wrote:

Dryunya wrote:I guess I'll just draw another fancy model when I get home. That should convince you.

Make sure it answers this as well:

IF, and that's a big if, each fictional work has its individual wall, they are all cracking, and the cracks are getting bigger. This would mean that whatever is cracking the walls is still acting, and our "new" fourth wall would soon be cracked.

Like I said there is only ONE fourth wall, but if you want a model it has to account for every possibility.

EDIT: Mr. As advert on TV Tropes proves my point that the ARG is only just getting started, there's a long way to go. Who knows, this theory may get shown as possible/ impossible. Or we might, you know, like the ending they have planned.

Not that I have any prior knowledge about the ending. That would be ridiculous.

Slandy, look, we have answered this a bunch. Not to be a jerk, but these questions have been covered like eight times. Look at the meta-verse model thread, since it's really the only model we have that has not been disproven and still works well with the Echo Chamber information. Basically, there is THE fourth wall, protecting fiction from reality, but what about things that are fiction INSIDE of fiction, Shows Within Shows? Well, we postulate that there are miniature fourth walls there as well, because how else would a fictional verse be able to have fiction?

We are not claiming that EVERY fourth wall is breaking here either. As we have said, the only wall breaking is OURS; the one separating us at the top level of reality from all the fiction below us. We do not intend to solve the problem of the fourth wall itself breaking with the fictionalization of the ARG, we only intend to solve the moral dilemma around sending characters back. We have already admitted that in all likelihood, fictionalizing the ARG will do nothing to the damage to our fourth wall, and will also necessarily create a second fourth wall below ours that is also cracked. This is why we have said we should only do this at the end, if at all, so that we can fix the main holes in our wall right after the fictionalization. As far as the lower universe goes, due to the fact that those on the level of reality control fiction at a Reality Warper level, we can stabilize the fictional ARG's reality our own way, allowing some characters to stay in the present, but also ensuring that the presence of fictionals there does not degrade reality.

We are not saying this should absolutely should be done, we are suggesting it as one of many possible things we could do should we deem action necessary. We are well aware that it is flawed as a plan, which is why it is, was, and always will be a last ditch emergency measure, and nothing more.

Understand?

Don't worry, I've read all the walls of text. They're your theories. I've been discussing mine.

I just think that by the time we get to the point where we're fixing the fourth wall, this could be irellevant as we will probably have much more info.

Also, have you thought about how us taking control of the canon will go down with the ARGs creators?

NeverSlender wrote:Don't worry, I've read all the walls of text. They're your theories. I've been discussing mine.

I just think that by the time we get to the point where we're fixing the fourth wall, this could be irellevant as we will probably have much more info.

Also, have you thought about how us taking control of the canon will go down with the ARGs creators?

First of all, I already outright stated somewhere tat by the time it matters we will have more info, so further theorizing right now is pointless.

Second, I'm not too worried what they think. We will act as the players, and they will try to control us as best they can. I will not consider their personal feeling in regard to in-game actions. If the players decide to Rage Against The Author, then the PM's are going to have to do something about it. I'm not going to stop because their feelings might conceivably be hurt, because the players are merely reacting to the game that they have given us.

Sicon112 wrote:

NeverSlender wrote:Don't worry, I've read all the walls of text. They're your theories. I've been discussing mine.

I just think that by the time we get to the point where we're fixing the fourth wall, this could be irellevant as we will probably have much more info.

Also, have you thought about how us taking control of the canon will go down with the ARGs creators?

First of all, I already outright stated somewhere tat by the time it matters we will have more info, so further theorizing right now is pointless.

Second, I'm not too worried what they think. We will act as the players, and they will try to control us as best they can. I will not consider their personal feeling in regard to in-game actions. If the players decide to Rage Against The Author, then the PM's are going to have to do something about it. I'm not going to stop because their feelings might conceivably be hurt, because the players are merely reacting to the game that they have given us.

I wasn't talking about personal feelings, I meant if they don't like what we're doing they can stop the ARG.

NeverSlender wrote:I wasn't talking about personal feelings, I meant if they don't like what we're doing they can stop the ARG.

If they stop the ARG out of spite, that is their decision and a very bad one. It's basically them throwing a temper tantrum. The nature of GMing is such that they must react to what the players decide to do, and cannot effect them directly. If they shut down the game because the players go a direction that they do not want, they only prove themselves incapable of the responsibility that comes with their position.

Sicon112 wrote:

NeverSlender wrote:I wasn't talking about personal feelings, I meant if they don't like what we're doing they can stop the ARG.

If they stop the ARG out of spite, that is their decision and a very bad one. It's basically them throwing a temper tantrum. The nature of GMing is such that they must react to what the players decide to do, and cannot effect them directly. If they shut down the game because the players go a direction that they do not want, they only prove themselves incapable of the responsibility that comes with their position.

In one of Drunyas posts, I don't have time to find it atm, he basically said we were gonna go, "give us a happy ending or we're not playing anymore", which would be US throwing a temper tantrum.

Anyhow, I'm off out for a bit. Be back in a few hours.

NeverSlender wrote:In one of Drunyas posts, I don't have time to find it atm, he basically said we were gonna go, "give us a happy ending or we're not playing anymore", which would be US throwing a temper tantrum.

Anyhow, I'm off out for a bit. Be back in a few hours.

We aren't going to just quit playing, and we have never suggested doing so. We have, however, said that we will do everything possible to force them into it, just because that is our will as players; to strive for the best possible ending. If they cannot compensate for that, too bad for them.