The "sending them back" dilemma

[NeverSlender]

I've kinda already written this but I'm gonna do it again, because I think it's important.

"Send the characters back because Mr. Administrator says so," is a shit story.

[Victin]

I've kinda already written this but I'm gonna do it again, because I think it's important.

"Send the characters back because Mr. Administrator says so," is a shit story.

The story will develop. Stories start like that and develop into walls of text. It has been like it since the dawn of time.

[Pixelmage]

How about we discuss, like what this board was made for? We don't agree with your opinions so we're talking about them. That's allowed. That's how this works, Pixelmage. The point of this thread is to discuss the dilemma have sending them back, as long as that is the current discussion, and we aren't off topic, we may say our opinions on it.

Which is exactly what I'm asking. I'm mad is at this:
https://twitter.com/WackyMPractical/sta ... 6653347840

I mean, come on! That's going to the principal because the kid beside you has a different hair color! Not that Mr. A has answered, of course. But if you're coming to the discussion to do that, may as well not appear.

[WackyMeetsPractical]

I have a sugestion to make.

It is clear to all of us that, no matter what we talk about here. And how we justify that sending them back is wrong. It won't change the result of the game. It won't change what we'll do in the end.
As I said, we talk about this because we sympathise with the chracters here the same way we do when we read then on their books. It's only natural to think about the Aesops behind the story. And we're now reading one as it is written. We will think about it, we will talk about. This will pop up again and again. And won't change anything in our story at all.

So, for those who are here to just say: "This is stupid. FOLLOW YOUR ORDERS!". Get out. Now. Abstain from posting here at all. We will keep doing our part, whether you're telling us to or not. This topic does not change that. And we can keep this gigantic elephant in his own room right here for those of us who ARE interested in thinking about it.

How does that sound?

Sounds like I'm not allowed to have a voice. I'm sorry, I don't mean to cause disharmony among us, but a little debate is healthy. The fact of the matter is, I myself was just playing a role. (I thought we all were). I'm not really so practical and emotionless in real life, (In fact, quite the opposite), but this is all a game anyway, so why not play that role? I didn't mean any real offense, only fake offense. But all the same, I do not appreciate being censored in this manner.

[NeverSlender]

I've kinda already written this but I'm gonna do it again, because I think it's important.

"Send the characters back because Mr. Administrator says so," is a shit story.

The story will develop. Stories start like that and develop into walls of text. It has been like it since the dawn of time.

That's what I'm hoping, but it hasn't yet. So at present we cannot say "send all the characters back," because all we have at the minute is that Mr. A says we should and that shouldn't be enough.

[Guyshane]

I've kinda already written this but I'm gonna do it again, because I think it's important.

"Send the characters back because Mr. Administrator says so," is a shit story.

The story will develop. Stories start like that and develop into walls of text. It has been like it since the dawn of time.

That's what I'm hoping, but it hasn't yet. So at present we cannot say "send all the characters back," because all we have at the minute is that Mr. A says we should and that shouldn't be enough.

Its not. I'm still wondering how much we should trust Mr.A just like I have since this started

[WackyMeetsPractical]

How about we discuss, like what this board was made for? We don't agree with your opinions so we're talking about them. That's allowed. That's how this works, Pixelmage. The point of this thread is to discuss the dilemma have sending them back, as long as that is the current discussion, and we aren't off topic, we may say our opinions on it.

Which is exactly what I'm asking. I'm mad is at this:
https://twitter.com/WackyMPractical/sta ... 6653347840

I mean, come on! That's going to the principal because the kid beside you has a different hair color! Not that Mr. A has answered, of course. But if you're coming to the discussion to do that, may as well not appear.

You saw that? It was all in good fun. I don't mean to be a troll, but I felt like he did deserve a say. In the end, it doesn't really matter. All who sympathize will continue to sympathize, and all who don't, won't. We're all just playing the game here in our own unique way.

[NeverSlender]

I don't trust him. At all. It's hard to trust someone when you never have any idea which part of them your speaking to or what their motives are.

[Pixelmage]

Sounds like I'm not allowed to have a voice. I'm sorry, I don't mean to cause disharmony among us, but a little debate is healthy. The fact of the matter is, I myself was just playing a role. (I thought we all were). I'm not really so practical and emotionless in real life, (In fact, quite the opposite), but this is all a game anyway, so why not play that role? I didn't mean any real offense, only fake offense. But all the same, I do not appreciate being censored in this manner.

I'm sorry if I missunderstood your intention. But playing the devil's advocate does not work well when you don't warn people you're doing it. I'm not trying to censor you. I'm angry right now, and that is reflected in my words. But what I mean is. If you offer no contribution, as the above mentioned "Follow your orders. That's all." it certainly hinders our efforts to talk about it.

[NeverSlender]

How about we discuss, like what this board was made for? We don't agree with your opinions so we're talking about them. That's allowed. That's how this works, Pixelmage. The point of this thread is to discuss the dilemma have sending them back, as long as that is the current discussion, and we aren't off topic, we may say our opinions on it.

Which is exactly what I'm asking. I'm mad is at this:
https://twitter.com/WackyMPractical/sta ... 6653347840

I mean, come on! That's going to the principal because the kid beside you has a different hair color! Not that Mr. A has answered, of course. But if you're coming to the discussion to do that, may as well not appear.

You saw that? It was all in good fun. I don't mean to be a troll, but I felt like he did deserve a say. In the end, it doesn't really matter. All who sympathize will continue to sympathize, and all who don't, won't. We're all just playing the game here in our own unique way.

Yeah... I'mma gonna ignore that tweet.

[Adell]

Okay, I understand your anger, then, mage. I think we can all cool down now, this is a somewhat heated argument after all.

**inhales/exhales**

What really has me worried, personally, is what we do with the characters who actively fight against being sent back? If they are developing themselves as they seem to be, we may come across that problem. Romeo seems like the individual who might want to stay, just from his reaction to the environment he's in. If we can't convince him the problem may be arise to send him by force...

[NeverSlender]

Okay, I understand your anger, then, mage. I think we can all cool down now, this is a somewhat heated argument after all.

**inhales/exhales**

What really has me worried, personally, is what we do with the characters who actively fight against being sent back? If they are developing themselves as they seem to be, we may come across that problem. Romeo seems like the individual who might want to stay, just from his reaction to the environment he's in.

First post, again. If there is no problem caused by there presence they can stay. If there is we have to find a way.

[Adell]

I've read it, thank you. That's your impression, I get it. I think they need to be sent back, the fact that holes are being punched into reality is good enough for me.

[WackyMeetsPractical]

Sounds like I'm not allowed to have a voice. I'm sorry, I don't mean to cause disharmony among us, but a little debate is healthy. The fact of the matter is, I myself was just playing a role. (I thought we all were). I'm not really so practical and emotionless in real life, (In fact, quite the opposite), but this is all a game anyway, so why not play that role? I didn't mean any real offense, only fake offense. But all the same, I do not appreciate being censored in this manner.

I'm sorry if I missunderstood your intention. But playing the devil's advocate does not work well when you don't warn people you're doing it. I'm not trying to censor you. I'm angry right now, and that is reflected in my words. But what I mean is. If you offer no contribution, as the above mentioned "Follow your orders. That's all." it certainly hinders our efforts to talk about it.

I apologize too. I simply didn't realize how invested some of us are, but it's natural, as you said before, to sympathize with fictional characters.

But I, personally, didn't mean to hinder conversation. I felt that by playing the opposite side of the issue, that we could enhance the discussion, explore it at all angles. If you really feel strongly in your beliefs, then you should have no problem supporting them against opposition, and it may even strengthen your side. I find that debate is healthy, and I rather enjoy it for it's own sake, up until the point it angers people, which I'm sorry again that this has led to. I'll try to keep my opinions to myself. Though, for the sake of the game, I will still play as if returning the characters is the most important thing to do. As, I have no other idea what there is to do.

[NeverSlender]

That's your impression. I think they need to be sent back.

Why? I'm adding something else because just asking "why" seems a bit rude.

[NeverSlender]

I've read it, thank you. That's your impression, I get it. I think they need to be sent back, the fact that holes are being punched into reality is good enough for me.

Dammit you edited while I was posting. I think it's the other way around. The characters aren't causing the cracks by coming through, they are coming through because there are cracks in the wall.

[Adell]

That's your impression. I think they need to be sent back.

Why? I'm adding something else because just asking "why" seems a bit rude.

I had edited my post a bit, but I'll just kind of retype it. Simply put, the fact that reality is cracking at the seams due to them crossing over is enough for me to want to put them back and seal the exit. I don't want to take chances. If we keep them here and found out down the line we need to send the back after the wall is fixed, we could have serious problems. The two problems might technically be separate (they may have just fallen through the cracks back accident, and not the actual cause), but I'm not looking for an explanation necessarily of what kind of damage is being/can be done, we've seen that literal holes are being punched into reality, that's all I need to see to want to make things right again. That means putting them back in the fictional world and closing the holes up.

[Victin]

Maybe something caused the cracks, and each time a character pass through the cracks widen.

[WackyMeetsPractical]

I don't think it matters if the characters are causing the cracks or the other way around. All that matters is that there ARE characters getting through, and there ARE cracks. Both are problematic, and must be fixed.

[NeverSlender]

I don't think it matters if the characters are causing the cracks or the other way around. All that matters is that there ARE characters getting through, and there ARE cracks. Both are problematic, and must be fixed.

But it does matter. If they aren't causing the cracks then, going by the information we have, the only problem we have is they don't know our world very well.

(Edited as I worded it very badly the first time.)

[Adell]

I don't think it matters if the characters are causing the cracks or the other way around. All that matters is that there ARE characters getting through, and there ARE cracks. Both are problematic, and must be fixed.

But it does matter. If they aren't causing the cracks then, going by the information we have, the only problem we have is they don't know our world very well.

(Edited as I worded it very badly the first time.)

My opinion on the matter is that, unless we have some kind of proof that their presence here is harmless, I don't want to take the risk of leaving them here. If we can prove that more damage won't be caused, then I'd be more willing to listen to letting them stay, personally. For me it's a matter of risk, I just don't want to risk our very reality to let them stay. Better to cautiously send them home and not need to, then leave them here and realize it was a terrible mistake.

[Pixelmage]

Maybe something caused the cracks, and each time a character pass through the cracks widen.

In that case. If we can seal the cracks so that no other characters come through, the problem would end. No relation whatsoever to the characters already here, meaning they could choose by themselves whether to go before we close the wall or stay permanently on our side... That would be something I'd like to see.

Offnote @Wacky, the tweet sent me over the edge, sorry about that. Join us to nitpick at our ideas anytime you want. I'll be happy to counter your arguments.

[NeverSlender]

I don't think it matters if the characters are causing the cracks or the other way around. All that matters is that there ARE characters getting through, and there ARE cracks. Both are problematic, and must be fixed.

But it does matter. If they aren't causing the cracks then, going by the information we have, the only problem we have is they don't know our world very well.

(Edited as I worded it very badly the first time.)

My opinion on the matter is that, unless we have some kind of proof that their presence here is harmless, I don't want to take the risk of leaving them here. If we can prove that more damage won't be caused, then I'd be more willing to listen to letting them stay, personally. For me it's a matter of risk, I just don't want to risk our very reality to let them stay. Better to cautiously send them home and not need to, then leave them here and realize it was a terrible mistake.

If some of the characters weren't going back to their stories to die, I'd agree. As they would be I think proof that they are causing harm is important.

[Sicon112]

This is certainly an interesting conversation, so I'm going to add my thoughts.

Beginning from a Meta point of view in relation to the ARG, hey, it's a game. They aren't really characters, even in the game, so everything is fine, and we don't need to give ourselves Fridge Horror. That's no fun though, so...

Going a level deeper and thinking at the level of the game, however, things get complex. Assuming first that they are the characters directly taken OUT OF their original works, sending them back may result in some pretty crappy things. But they're just fictional characters, right?

Not so much. Overlaying the Meta-model that Dryu and I created (which is so far our best model, as it has yet to be contradicted) at their level of reality, they think and act just as freely as we do. When Humans on our level write stories, they are bringing into being whole, self-contained universes, the inhabitants of which, if you only observe their level of reality, are technically full beings in their own right. (At least, as long as the story is well written) A character in a story doesn't just do things randomly, he acts according to a character and personality unique to him. Therefore, each character acts according to his own desires and thoughts, just as any of us do. Even if someone on our level of reality created the characters, that changes nothing. Do you think Doyle would completely overhaul Holmes' character halfway through a book with no explanation given whatsoever? Of course not. Regardless of whether we control the characters at this level, we are controlling them TO ACT IN A FREE MANNER. Paradoxical, but true.

However, I'm not as worried as some of you guys seem to be. Actually, I think some of your early theories that are work arounds of this are spot on. After all, if we just launch this ARG over to the other side of the wall, we stabilize the main wall here. After that, a sub-universe for the ARG comes into being, and we retcon the laws of physics in the sub-universe from here so that it can exist in it's current state, i.e. with fictional interacting with humans.

There. Everything solved with ridiculous recursion and confusing paradoxes. My work here is done.

[Scarab]

I'm with NeverSlender in thinking we need more information. We have been given very little reason to Trust Mister A. and a good few reasons NOT to, and he continues to be unclear with us. I'm not sure what he's working at or why he's being so vague, maybe he has a good reason. But if these characters lives' actually are at stake then I think we owe it to them not to just fling them back because some vague face in a voice told us it was the right thing to do without saying why.

by NeverSlender » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:03 pm
WackyMeetsPractical wrote:
I don't think it matters if the characters are causing the cracks or the other way around. All that matters is that there ARE characters getting through, and there ARE cracks. Both are problematic, and must be fixed.
But it does matter. If they aren't causing the cracks then, going by the information we have, the only problem they cause is due to some misunderstandings of our world.

Yes, and so far that's the ONLY problem we've actually seen. Now if it gets to the point where otherworldly abominations are coming through, or we're dealing with massively dangerous supernatural weapons or something then that's a concern, but we don't KNOW that's going to happen. So far all we've had are characters who (if the witch is anything to go by) asppear to lose their supernatural abilities when they enter this world. How do we know for sure they're really a threat at all? And how do we know sending them back would do anything to fix it?

So basically, everybody's got a point here, really.