Metaverse model

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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Krika on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:09 pm

Yes, I agree that time should be a dimension in the model, but it's one that everything has, and it's unimportant for determining the shape of the metaverse. Including it as more than an assumption would make the model more confusing than it needs to be.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:14 pm

Krika wrote:Yes, I agree that time should be a dimension in the model, but it's one that everything has, and it's unimportant for determining the shape of the metaverse. Including it as more than an assumption would make the model more confusing than it needs to be.


Actually, while time is in each universe, when you look at things from outside like this model attempts to do, time becomes meaningless since the "time" dimension only affects things within a universe and has only the slightest relation to the "time" of other universes in its 4d multiverse. Comparing time between multiverses has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. Basically, time doesn't need to be part of the model. We know it is there within each universe, but when you look at a universe from outside, all points on the time dimension can be observed, such as when you read a book.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Krika on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:16 pm

Sicon112 wrote:
Krika wrote:Yes, I agree that time should be a dimension in the model, but it's one that everything has, and it's unimportant for determining the shape of the metaverse. Including it as more than an assumption would make the model more confusing than it needs to be.


Actually, while time is in each universe, when you look at things from outside like this model attempts to do, time becomes meaningless since the "time" dimension only affects things within a universe and has only the slightest relation to the "time" of other universes in its 4d multiverse. Comparing time between multiverses has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. Basically, time doesn't need to be part of the model. We know it is there within each universe, but when you look at a universe from outside, all points on the time dimension can be observed, such as when you read a book.


Which is what I meant.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby S_o_S on Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:29 pm

This is all making my brain seriously hurt.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:37 pm

S_o_S wrote:This is all making my brain seriously hurt.


Most people have that reaction when they come here.

It's probably a sign that you are sane.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby eli_gone_crazy on Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:38 pm

Dryunya wrote:Ok. Now I'll try to make sense of the Witch's interpretation of the model. I'm bad at spatial four-dimensional thinking (space-time thinking is still OK), so I'll need your opinion.

Wicked Witch wrote:The problem with this is that wormholes only work within the four dimensions of space and time. Wormholes will either bridged distances in 3 dimensions or connect alternate universes with your universe.
You can break through the connecting walls of each alternate universe, but you cannot connect to a universe that is completely separate from your own. For those of you who are familiar with four dimensional geometic shapes: instead of connecting to another cube in a tesseract, I need to connect to a completely different tesseract and cross what could be considered a fifth dimension – this White Void, or Fourth Wall, or what have you. Wormholes can’t do that, so I’m still stuck here.

Ok. By the second sentence, she lost me.
So our universe is represented with 3 spatial coordinates and 1 temporal coordinate. Makes sense.

Now adding one more dimension would represent our entire universe and its history as a 5-dimensional plane. Travelling along the 5th axis would mean travelling between the parallel planes representing other universes (oh hey, that is why they are called "parallel worlds" :D ).
The way I see it, we may divide the 5-dimensional space in two by an impassable (via wormholes, or whatever) 5-dimensional plane which we call The White Void. The halves of the metaverse are still infinite, so it's ok. :) Travelling along the 5th axis in the fictional half would mean travelling between different stories.

...and now that I have to include the intersections of the fictional universes, canon weldings and whatnot, and especially nested universes, I'm officially baffled. Considering that every 4-dimensional space in the fictional half should still have its sub-universe... Ok, I'm stuck in my own words. Basically, I'm saying that our model implies infinite-dimensional space, no matter how hardcore it may sound. :shock:

Now is your turn to say it in a way that actually makes sense. :gurt:

UPD: I'm not sure what she meant by "separate tesseracts". If she meant separated in the 5-dimentional space - most of them are. If she still meant 4-dimensional one, then the tesseracts would have to be finite, which is hardly correct.


I've heard it explained that every universe is a bubble, and some bubbles touch each other, but some are separated by other bubbles.

I'm guessing that wormholes connect the universes that touch, but the white void is almost like a fabric surrounding all the universes, connecting them all. \
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:10 pm

eli_gone_crazy wrote:I've heard it explained that every universe is a bubble, and some bubbles touch each other, but some are separated by other bubbles.

I'm guessing that wormholes connect the universes that touch, but the white void is almost like a fabric surrounding all the universes, connecting them all. \


Sorry but... not exactly. See my posts for relevant explanations.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Dryunya on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:56 pm

eli_gone_crazy wrote:I've heard it explained that every universe is a bubble, and some bubbles touch each other, but some are separated by other bubbles.

I'm guessing that wormholes connect the universes that touch, but the white void is almost like a fabric surrounding all the universes, connecting them all. \

Well, the explanations like that are suitable to make some general <whatever; brain fart>, but we are trying to make a model that makes mathematical sense, which is pretty badass, if you think about it. :) (Or, considering that we are doing all this extensive mind-bending research for an imaginary world, pretty pathetic. -_-")
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Greyscale on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:07 pm

I love you all for this.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby eli_gone_crazy on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:11 pm

Dryunya wrote:
eli_gone_crazy wrote:I've heard it explained that every universe is a bubble, and some bubbles touch each other, but some are separated by other bubbles.

I'm guessing that wormholes connect the universes that touch, but the white void is almost like a fabric surrounding all the universes, connecting them all. \

Well, the explanations like that are suitable to make some general <whatever; brain fart>, but we are trying to make a model that makes mathematical sense, which is pretty badass, if you think about it. :) (Or, considering that we are doing all this extensive mind-bending research for an imaginary world, pretty pathetic. -_-")


Well, I think it's awesome. :)
And I just remembered what I learned in a physics class, which was far less entertaining than this.
but according to your theories, or at least mine (though less awesome and mathematically based), fictional universes are just as real as ours, they are just different.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Krika on Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:17 am

Which, given that there is specific proof of them coming into contact with ours, is a problem how? Just because they're stories to us (until now) doesn't mean that they're any less real.
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>We are affirming our collective jerkhood by committing genocide on them.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby eli_gone_crazy on Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:19 am

Krika wrote:Which, given that there is specific proof of them coming into contact with ours, is a problem how? Just because they're stories to us (until now) doesn't mean that they're any less real.


I am confused. :/
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:28 am

Krika wrote:Which, given that there is specific proof of them coming into contact with ours, is a problem how? Just because they're stories to us (until now) doesn't mean that they're any less real.


Actually, there appears to be a fundamental difference between the two types that can aptly be characterized as "real" and "fiction". That is the whole point.

The issue is that this multiverse is the "creator" to all of the others. The fictional levels of the metaverse trace backwards to this single parent multiverse, and it seems that a fictional universe coming into contact with a creator universe creates a catastrophe.

Note: Fictional cross overs between worlds that regard each other as fiction still work because neither is the true creator universe for the other. While each regard each other as fiction, they actually have the relationship that you are talking about. Each one is as real as the other, that is to say, not at all.

Note2: Definition of 'real' in this model would be "Something that is a creator universe, but has no creator universe linked to it."
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby eli_gone_crazy on Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:05 am

Sicon112 wrote:
Krika wrote:Which, given that there is specific proof of them coming into contact with ours, is a problem how? Just because they're stories to us (until now) doesn't mean that they're any less real.


Actually, there appears to be a fundamental difference between the two types that can aptly be characterized as "real" and "fiction". That is the whole point.

The issue is that this multiverse is the "creator" to all of the others. The fictional levels of the metaverse trace backwards to this single parent multiverse, and it seems that a fictional universe coming into contact with a creator universe creates a catastrophe.

Note: Fictional cross overs between worlds that regard each other as fiction still work because neither is the true creator universe for the other. While each regard each other as fiction, they actually have the relationship that you are talking about. Each one is as real as the other, that is to say, not at all.

Note2: Definition of 'real' in this model would be "Something that is a creator universe, but has no creator universe linked to it."


Pardon my non-mathematical mind when I simplify it to an hierarchy.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby eli_gone_crazy on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:06 am

so the fictionals are infinite, auto replacing as the need arises. when a fictional crosses dimensions, a new one is made to take its place, and ensure that the story continues as planned. then we cant return the fictional to their own story and must, as a creator universe, create a wholly new story to put the fictionals in.
when you distill that into the essence of a character, like quixote being the essence of a hero, or the witch being the essence of her type, you can see how they would miss other versions similar to their own.
because quixote, is in essence, a true hero, any versions of his hero are unreadable to him.
does this make sense?
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:14 am

We were bouncing around this idea in the chatroom, so I'm going to copy here my version of essentially the same thing Eli's saying (I think) :

As soon as someone creates a character for the first time, the character appears in the story AND the Platonic Form of that character-- your Essence of Witch, if you will-- begins existence in the Void. Every time someone re-tells the story, the Platonic Form spawns an AU clone to occupy that retelling, much like A spinning off an instantiation. The fictionals in our world are AU clones spun off by the Forms in the Void, for the express purpose of coming here-- hence why we have to give them new AU stories to occupy. This also explains why Morgan claims to have her AU memories, because it's just like how new instantiations still share hivemind with Prime.
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Victin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:18 pm

Whell, I lost Qara new vision at the model, could someone make a summary for me?
BTW, Tesseracts are 4D cubes. 4D as in three spatial dimentions and one temporal dimention.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:34 pm

Victin, I'm working based on a 6D model: the first 3 dimensions are spatial, the 4th is temporal, the 5th separates parallel universes, and the 6th separates the real world and fictional universes from each other.

Laconic: So the "essence" of each character remains in the void, and every time their story is told differently, a new copy of that character lives it out in a new parallel universe to that story. But when the wall broke, the "essence" of the characters made an extra copy that came to the REAL world instead of a new parallel universe for that character's story. We have to write a new parallel universe for the character to send them to.

...that wasn't really shorter than my first attempt. But I tried to simplify the language, though that meant taking out the comparison to A.
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Victin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:39 pm

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:Victin, I'm working based on a 6D model: the first 3 dimensions are spatial, the 4th is temporal, the 5th separates parallel universes, and the 6th separates the real world and fictional universes from each other.

Laconic: So the "essence" of each character remains in the void, and every time their story is told differently, a new copy of that character lives it out in a new parallel universe to that story. But when the wall broke, the "essence" of the characters made an extra copy that came to the REAL world instead of a new parallel universe for that character's story. We have to write a new parallel universe for the character to send them to.

...that wasn't really shorter than my first attempt. But I tried to simplify the language, though that meant taking out the comparison to A.

Well, the only point in which I disagree are the dimentions of your model. For me the 5th one is temporal and the 6th is just the border of the universe/void between them. But I believe the universe is 4D, so that's kinda meaningless for me unless you're proven right.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:19 pm

First of all, time really doesn't matter in this equation, people. Time is a coordinate within a multiverse like our own, but, due to the Witch's wormhole experiments our theory that time was disconnected between worlds has been confirmed, so we can drop that variable when we model the entire metaverse. (This is also what I've been trying to say in regard to the reading thing)

Secondly, I noticed Pixie say in the chatbox that the above theory was the only one that explained recent data. However, Qara and I already had a theory on the subject. The fact that fictionals bring their narratives over here with them makes the simplest explanation for Morgan's situation this: that once she came over to this world her 'setting' began to leak over at once into her brain. If it is only happening for her, DF's theory in the chatbox, which blamed it on the vague nature of folk tales, is probably correct.

Wacky mentioned in the chatbox that he now thought the fictionals were affected by the act of 'writing' instead of reading, which is very probably correct, as the emphasis has been on that throughout this and EC. However, I think I should clarify that time is not really important in this case either. Therefore, every time a new fictional is created in our timeline, a new universe IS spun off, but the universe then proceeds to exist alongside the others as if it had always been there.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Scarab on Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:24 pm

Sicon112 wrote:First of all, time really doesn't matter in this equation, people. Time is a coordinate within a multiverse like our own, but, due to the Witch's wormhole experiments our theory that time was disconnected between worlds has been confirmed, so we can drop that variable when we model the entire metaverse. (This is also what I've been trying to say in regard to the reading thing)

Secondly, I noticed Pixie say in the chatbox that the above theory was the only one that explained recent data. However, Qara and I already had a theory on the subject. The fact that fictionals bring their narratives over here with them makes the simplest explanation for Morgan's situation this: that once she came over to this world her 'setting' began to leak over at once into her brain. If it is only happening for her, DF's theory in the chatbox, which blamed it on the vague nature of folk tales, is probably correct.

Wacky mentioned in the chatbox that he now thought the fictionals were affected by the act of 'writing' instead of reading, which is very probably correct, as the emphasis has been on that throughout this and EC. However, I think I should clarify that time is not really important in this case either. Therefore, every time a new fictional is created in our timeline, a new universe IS spun off, but the universe then proceeds to exist alongside the others as if it had always been there.


In other words, somewhere out there are Romeo and Juliet, still the young martys who die for their love. The story Shakespeare created hasn't changed, a new story has been created. These people here are, quite literally brand new people, albeit still defined by previous experiences.

So... wait, essentially, Morgan became the collective of all versions of her that have previously been written? In much the same way, say, alternate universe versions of ourselves would still be ourselves, regardless of experience. So if you were to mash all of us together into one identity, would identities experieces hold dominance over others, or is it some kind of equal merge, depending on how simialr each personality is?

...Or am I just completely missing the point here?
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby eli_gone_crazy on Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:40 pm

Scarab wrote:
Sicon112 wrote:First of all, time really doesn't matter in this equation, people. Time is a coordinate within a multiverse like our own, but, due to the Witch's wormhole experiments our theory that time was disconnected between worlds has been confirmed, so we can drop that variable when we model the entire metaverse. (This is also what I've been trying to say in regard to the reading thing)

Secondly, I noticed Pixie say in the chatbox that the above theory was the only one that explained recent data. However, Qara and I already had a theory on the subject. The fact that fictionals bring their narratives over here with them makes the simplest explanation for Morgan's situation this: that once she came over to this world her 'setting' began to leak over at once into her brain. If it is only happening for her, DF's theory in the chatbox, which blamed it on the vague nature of folk tales, is probably correct.

Wacky mentioned in the chatbox that he now thought the fictionals were affected by the act of 'writing' instead of reading, which is very probably correct, as the emphasis has been on that throughout this and EC. However, I think I should clarify that time is not really important in this case either. Therefore, every time a new fictional is created in our timeline, a new universe IS spun off, but the universe then proceeds to exist alongside the others as if it had always been there.


In other words, somewhere out there are Romeo and Juliet, still the young martys who die for their love. The story Shakespeare created hasn't changed, a new story has been created. These people here are, quite literally brand new people, albeit still defined by previous experiences.

So... wait, essentially, Morgan became the collective of all versions of her that have previously been written? In much the same way, say, alternate universe versions of ourselves would still be ourselves, regardless of experience. So if you were to mash all of us together into one identity, would identities experieces hold dominance over others, or is it some kind of equal merge, depending on how simialr each personality is?

...Or am I just completely missing the point here?


The way I saw it, and Qara too I believe, is that all the characters originate from the same point.
So the Romeo's we meet in any form all originated from the "essence" of Romeo.

When a new story is created, a new copy is made from the essence of the character. This copy can perform everything character prime can, its just another, smaller piece of it.

So, when a character crosses the wall, a new copy is automatically made to replace the one that was lost. This explains the reason we need to write a new fiction, instead of shoving the characters back into the old version.

I don't know what happens when character dies, but if the characters operate in a way similar to Mister A, then they would return to their source and be reintegrated.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:19 pm

Dana wrote:They probably go somewhere in the 7th dimension - that of adorability.


It looks like we're going to have to revise our model yet again, guys; turns out we're not dealing with six dimensions (one, time, being irrelevant), but seven. We're going to have to work out whether adorability functions more like time or like space, and adapt the model accordingly, taking into account how this affects our previous conclusions.

Okay, that's about as long as I can hold that straight face. Also, I'm not just posting this to be silly, but-- *looks over her shoulder with paranoia*-- I'll have to trust you to recognize my implied conclusion.
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Metaverse model

Postby H22 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:23 pm

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:
Dana wrote:They probably go somewhere in the 7th dimension - that of adorability.


It looks like we're going to have to revise our model yet again, guys; turns out we're not dealing with six dimensions (one, time, being irrelevant), but seven. We're going to have to work out whether adorability functions more like time or like space, and adapt the model accordingly, taking into account how this affects our previous conclusions.

Okay, that's about as long as I can hold that straight face. Also, I'm not just posting this to be silly, but-- *looks over her shoulder with paranoia*-- I'll have to trust you to recognize my implied conclusion.


Oh God. Now they'll be dimensions of coolness, craziness, awesomeness, sheer madness..... The world will collapse under the burden of inter-dimensional conflict :( .
What's this conclusion?
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Pixelmage on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:41 pm

I'm not sure which thread to post this on... But since here is one of the more meta-forgiving threads we have, I'll try it here.
I just had a very creepy hunch a few minutes ago: What if sealing the wall kills the characters on this side?

Let me elaborate: They are not from this world. They are from the other side of the wall. They do not exist here and that we can craft a power vacuum to whisk them away, means they're somehow still linked with the things there. Think fishing rod. We have the hook here, but the rod itself on the other side. Sealing the wall severs the line, cutting the connection, meaning, the hook will sink.

But, that wouldn't be an issue... What I think should perhaps be compared to water and oil. They, being from another reality, are not exactly the same as us. What is different is undefined, but something is, or we'd not have a crisis on our hands and inter-universe travel would be a thing. So, suppose you put water and oil together... They'll not mix. It creates a layered texture, so, to make it "stable" as in "homogeneous" you could apply movement. Shake it up. Put it on a blender and let it mix so that it's a single texture. They'll be a single composite as long as the blender is on. But turn it off and, even if the water stabilizes, the oil will get ejected from it.

We have the Wall open, the "tremors" Mr. A has said, the crisis itself... This open link to the other side is shaking our world, but it is what is keeping the characters stable within our world. Seal it off, stop the tremors, and they have no more sustenance within our reality, thus, get kicked out. Since the way home is closed, they'll just get ejected to the nearest open spot, wherever that is, which is what I call as "death" for the sake of this idea... (Or in a case similar as Pan's case noted bellow they might simply stop existing, vanishing completely).

Don't bring physics into this, please? ;) As Pan vanished in a spark of light and we all know matter does not vanish like, and if the atoms that should compose his body were to turn into gas... Well... Anyone that can talk physics on this level should be able to calculate the energy levels of such a process. Besides, the fact that it happened seems to prove that they're not built from this world's matter, thus, do not belong here from a physics view. And since they exist and interact, they are sustained somehow that is not fit within real world physics. We can either Meta-Handwave or see this as evidence that they are not really the same as us.

As to meta... Remember Dryu's argument that since they're not here being played by the GMs and all that, that they can't stay here no matter what happens in the end? Well, if they cease to exist once the link to their world is cut... Well... It gets rid of them just as much as reficking them does. Only it's 'killing' instead of 'sending them home'. If so sealing the wall is perfectly fine, and even easier, as long as we're willing to kill them.

As I said, this is just a hunch, a creepy thought that crossed my mind minutes ago, so don't think I'm saying this as an end all theory or anything of the sort. I barely had half an hour between thinking his and pressing submit, so...
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