Metaverse model

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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:43 am

I think Pixel's representation is correct.
For those who don't get the graphic, she's describing the metaverse as being 6-dimensional.

OUR universe has the five dimensions Dryu mentioned-- three of space, one of time, and one of parallel universes that are "one decision away" from our own. A wormhole, according to the witch, can get you to anywhere else within these five dimensions.

Problem is, the white void separates us along the sixth dimension, from fictional verses which, like our own, are similarly composed of the five dimensions of space, time, and parallel reality. Or, if you want to joke about it, space, time, and bad decisions.

Just like travelling along the fifth dimension, to parallel worlds, gets you to somewhere that's already equipped with its own four, travelling along the sixth dimension would get you to a different universe with its own time, space, and parallel worlds.
Sixth dimension travel cannot be facilitated by wormholes, and it's across this sixth dimension that we're going to need to send the fictionals.
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Zup on Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:50 am

But aren't we already somehow crossing that line? How else does fiction come to be? Do we create it as we write, and thus reach across the sixth dimension? Or is already there and writers are getting glimpses of it as they write?
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Victin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:52 am

I think that if anything in the Fictional world couldn't pass to ours world in the first place, it shouldn't be happening. So that's must mean the universe is breaking itself as two worlds collide.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Pixelmage on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:00 am

I do have another way to look at it, but there's no way I can draw it on PowerPoint... The description might mean that the Fourth Wall is actually WITHIN our universe, which arguably fits the Metaverse Model better... But I'll have to play around to actually be ableo to draw that in a way that makes sense.

The two separete multiverses representation is easier to understand, but not quite acurate enough...
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:32 am

Okay, I've got a pretty good representation of my metaverse model, but I don't have the time or resources to draw it all for you now. Instead, I'll walk you through it, and show a partial representation of it to make things clearer.

I'm going to leave out the fourth and fifth dimensions (time and parallel universes) for now, since they don't affect things and would needlessly complicate the visual.

Imagine a cube. Number each of its points with the numbers 1-8 (or letters A-H). This cube represents the three (really 5) dimensions of our reality.
Now draw another cube, and number its points in the same order.
Connect the two cubes by drawing lines between corresponding points (ones with the same number/letter).
Repeat, until you have a new square whose "points" are really cubes.

Each of these cubes is a different universe, complete with five dimensions. Of course, this is a simplistic rendering of it, because there are obviously a lot more than three fictional worlds, but it's a good aid to visualizing it.

To simulate fictional worlds within fictional worlds, just pick one of the three "fictional" cubes shown and connect it to its own set of cubes in the same way, in a different direction.

And where's the Void/Fourth wall? I thought about this, and realized that to enable crossovers between fiction, the void is an anomalous thing only present for our universe, to protect us from being influenced by fiction. So to represent the void, draw a circle around the cube that represents us. We are surrounded by the Fourth Wall, to prevent us from interacting with fictional characters (except now, of course, that fourth wall has been breached...).
Attachments
partial metaverse.png
Here I've drawn as far as three cubes; I don't have the time to make all four match up when I can only use Windows Paint:
partial metaverse.png (31.43 KiB) Viewed 7133 times
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Krika on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:06 am

That's....basically another way to represent a Tesseract. I think. It might not be what you're going for, but I think that treating our world and each individual parallel world as a Tesseract with infinite alternate rooms might be the best idea for now.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:10 am

Well, yes. It's a tesseract's tesseract, though, except I kept the tesseract part out of each universe, representing them in three dimensions instead of four or five, to avoid confusion.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Krika on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:42 am

Oh.

Sorry, so each cube is it's own tesseract, and they form a much larger (and probably infinitely big) tesseract that is the multiverse? (or is it the metaverse?)
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:48 am

Yes. Each cube actually represents a tesseract, which is each universe/ multiverse.
By connecting these tesseracts to each other via tesseract, we create the metaverse.
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Krika on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:54 am

So the metaverse is just an additional dimension on top of the multiverse. Ok, that makes sense.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:36 pm

Dryunya wrote:Ok. Now I'll try to make sense of the Witch's interpretation of the model. I'm bad at spatial four-dimensional thinking (space-time thinking is still OK), so I'll need your opinion.

Wicked Witch wrote:The problem with this is that wormholes only work within the four dimensions of space and time. Wormholes will either bridged distances in 3 dimensions or connect alternate universes with your universe.
You can break through the connecting walls of each alternate universe, but you cannot connect to a universe that is completely separate from your own. For those of you who are familiar with four dimensional geometic shapes: instead of connecting to another cube in a tesseract, I need to connect to a completely different tesseract and cross what could be considered a fifth dimension – this White Void, or Fourth Wall, or what have you. Wormholes can’t do that, so I’m still stuck here.

Ok. By the second sentence, she lost me.
So our universe is represented with 3 spatial coordinates and 1 temporal coordinate. Makes sense.

Now adding one more dimension would represent our entire universe and its history as a 5-dimensional plane. Travelling along the 5th axis would mean travelling between the parallel planes representing other universes (oh hey, that is why they are called "parallel worlds" :D ).
The way I see it, we may divide the 5-dimensional space in two by an impassable (via wormholes, or whatever) 5-dimensional plane which we call The White Void. The halves of the metaverse are still infinite, so it's ok. :) Travelling along the 5th axis in the fictional half would mean travelling between different stories.

...and now that I have to include the intersections of the fictional universes, canon weldings and whatnot, and especially nested universes, I'm officially baffled. Considering that every 4-dimensional space in the fictional half should still have its sub-universe... Ok, I'm stuck in my own words. Basically, I'm saying that our model implies infinite-dimensional space, no matter how hardcore it may sound. :shock:

Now is your turn to say it in a way that actually makes sense. :gurt:

UPD: I'm not sure what she meant by "separate tesseracts". If she meant separated in the 5-dimentional space - most of them are. If she still meant 4-dimensional one, then the tesseracts would have to be finite, which is hardly correct.


OK, this I can do, but I cannot guarantee it will make more sense in the end.

Addressing your UPD section first, because I can, remember the tesseract thing is just an analogy. Actually each universe has infinite sections and such, but just think of a tesseract for simplicity. (I love how in any other context that statement would be soooooo weird.)

Basically, our universe is like a tesseract, a four dimensional geometric shape made up of cubes. According to the Witch, ONE of those cubes is where we exist right now, on the top plane of reality. Within the cube, only three dimensions are observable. That makes sense, right? However, we are separated from alternate cubes, what the Witch dubs "alternate universes", by the fourth dimension. Thinking about the alternate universes for us can be shelved for a later date once we get the basics down. What the Witch was saying is that via wormhole you can warp from cube to cube in our "tesseract", though of course there are infinite AU cubes to warp to. Remember, the tesseract thing is just a model.

Then we hit the fourth wall, the barrier of the "fifth dimension". The space the wall occupies is like the space between two tesseracts if you were to set one next to the other on a table. Neither one is directly connected to the other. This makes me curious as to how writing fiction works, I suppose all objects trade a few particles now and then, but that's something for another time.

On the other side of the fourth wall are the first level fictions, as before. For each of these fictional universes, there are a bunch of alternate universes which are, for instance, alternate universe stories. These work the same way as our universe's four dimensions, but are separate from it and from other fictions by fifth dimensional space because each one is a separate tesseract.

Now this is extremely simplified. Obviously direct fiction from a universe shares some relation we have not quantified yet, but for now just think of each fictional world as it's own separate shape.

Make more sense?
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:40 pm

Also, because I didn't read this page before posting, there HAS to be fourth walls between fiction, and the void IS the wall. For instance, in Poirot's universe, Holmes is fiction. Therefore, there is a wall separating them. However, since each universe separated by these fourth walls is a FICTIONAL one, their interactions are less catastrophic since all parties involved are the same type of being. The issue with the fictionals in our world is that their existence in incompatible with ours.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:50 pm

Oh, and don't bother about time. Just remove it from the equation like I did. It's not important enough to think about.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Pixelmage on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:51 pm

Sicon112 wrote:Oh, and don't bother about time. Just remove it from the equation like I did. It's not important enough to think about.

What about my image..?
Well, I guess it was just what you said in graphic form... But... :(
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:59 pm

Pixelmage wrote:
Sicon112 wrote:Oh, and don't bother about time. Just remove it from the equation like I did. It's not important enough to think about.

What about my image..?
Well, I guess it was just what you said in graphic form... But... :(


Yeah, it was a pretty good example, that is, as long as you meant the entire section on the other side of the wall to be an example of a single fictional multiverse. And I'm not sure about putting second level fiction inside first level, because it seems to be separated from first level fiction just like fiction is separated from us.

Like I said, there is a connection of sorts between a universe and it's fiction, probably a one way one, at least normally. This allows the fiction to be written. However, I can't really think of a good way to represent that.

The alternative is that the GMs want to have a super-multiverse where nothing is fiction and all that we think of AS fiction is subtly ingrained in its author's head from across worlds. But that's boring, and it wouldn't explain how crossovers work for other worlds and not ours. There are a bunch of other plot holes with it to, but I won't go over them all. Suffice to say, it seems unlikely.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Dryunya on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:07 pm

I Cannot Grasp The True Form. :cry:
I think the biggest problem with the Witch's model is that even if most of us finally get it, the explanations for it will be totally different, and thus incompatible (for example, most of my interpretations of higher dimensions are more like a vector field in 3d - I told you I can't comprehend higher dimensions. That's why, btw, I don't get that "tesseract is 6 cubes" interpretation). Basically, understanding the multi-dimensional model is Something One's Got To Do Himself.
So far, I'm failing. If I don't succeed, I'll officially become useless in my own brainchild thread. I've Made Myself Sad. :(

Some comment from me: If we look at our current model and represent every point in those purple squiggly lines with a 3-dimensional space, we basically get a tesseract. It still gets more confusing if I come back to the "parallel 5-dimensional planes" model.

I think the GMs have invited some mathematician to screw with us for making them comprehend our model. :gurt:

Some stray right-before-submitting thought: I think we can consider our model complete from the mathematical standpoint when we have a universal coordinate system, so that we can define a point in any universe, time and position with a set of numbers (possibly infinite). I haven't developed that thought into anything sensible, but it's some food for thought.

AND nearly forgot: Somebody has mentioned "universe", "metaverse" and "omniverse". I think it's about time we define the terms. I propose the following: "universe" is something limited by 3 (the number can be different, but let's not go there) spatial and 1 temporal coordinate; can be real and fictional (who's who depends on the direction of those through-the-wall interactions). "Metaverse" is all universes combined, both real and fictional. I don't remember what the omniverse was, but for now I just assume it as a badass-sounding word. :D

I'm sorry my posts lack their usual order. That's either because I sleep too little, or because I don't use lists. Probably the latter. :gurt:
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Victin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:12 pm

Dryunya wrote:I Cannot Grasp The True Form. :cry:
I think the biggest problem with the Witch's model is that even if most of us finally get it, the explanations for it will be totally different, and thus incompatible (for example, most of my interpretations of higher dimensions are more like a vector field in 3d - I told you I can't comprehend higher dimensions. That's why, btw, I don't get that "tesseract is 6 cubes" interpretation). Basically, understanding the multi-dimensional model is Something One's Got To Do Himself.
So far, I'm failing. If I don't succeed, I'll officially become useless in my own brainchild thread. I've Made Myself Sad. :(

Some comment from me: If we look at our current model and represent every point in those purple squiggly lines with a 3-dimensional space, we basically get a tesseract. It still gets more confusing if I come back to the "parallel 5-dimensional planes" model.

I think the GMs have invited some mathematician to screw with us for making them comprehend our model. :gurt:

Some stray right-before-submitting thought: I think we can consider our model complete from the mathematical standpoint when we have a universal coordinate system, so that we can define a point in any universe, time and position with a set of numbers (possibly infinite). I haven't developed that thought into anything sensible, but it's some food for thought.

AND nearly forgot: Somebody has mentioned "universe", "metaverse" and "omniverse". I think it's about time we define the terms. I propose the following: "universe" is something limited by 3 (the number can be different, but let's not go there) spatial and 1 temporal coordinate; can be real and fictional (who's who depends on the direction of those through-the-wall interactions). "Metaverse" is all universes combined, both real and fictional. I don't remember what the omniverse was, but for now I just assume it as a badass-sounding word. :D

I'm sorry my posts lack their usual order. That's either because I sleep too little, or because I don't use lists. Probably the latter. :gurt:

I think it's more like:
Universe: Limited number of spatial and temporal coordinates (Real and Fictional Multiverse)
Multiverse: Variations of a same universe.
Metaverse: Group of different Universes/Multiverses
Omniverse: Everything that there is
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:17 pm

Sicon112 wrote:
Like I said, there is a connection of sorts between a universe and it's fiction, probably a one way one, at least normally. This allows the fiction to be written. However, I can't really think of a good way to represent that.


Well, just assume that the Void is what prevents the connection between a universe from its fiction being two-way.
Refer to my diagram/explanation and replace my idea of the Void as a circle around only OUR reality with a circle around EVERY reality.
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:20 pm

Dryunya wrote:I Cannot Grasp The True Form. :cry:
I think the biggest problem with the Witch's model is that even if most of us finally get it, the explanations for it will be totally different, and thus incompatible (for example, most of my interpretations of higher dimensions are more like a vector field in 3d - I told you I can't comprehend higher dimensions. That's why, btw, I don't get that "tesseract is 6 cubes" interpretation). Basically, understanding the multi-dimensional model is Something One's Got To Do Himself.
So far, I'm failing. If I don't succeed, I'll officially become useless in my own brainchild thread. I've Made Myself Sad. :(

Some comment from me: If we look at our current model and represent every point in those purple squiggly lines with a 3-dimensional space, we basically get a tesseract. It still gets more confusing if I come back to the "parallel 5-dimensional planes" model.

I think the GMs have invited some mathematician to screw with us for making them comprehend our model. :gurt:

Some stray right-before-submitting thought: I think we can consider our model complete from the mathematical standpoint when we have a universal coordinate system, so that we can define a point in any universe, time and position with a set of numbers (possibly infinite). I haven't developed that thought into anything sensible, but it's some food for thought.

AND nearly forgot: Somebody has mentioned "universe", "metaverse" and "omniverse". I think it's about time we define the terms. I propose the following: "universe" is something limited by 3 (the number can be different, but let's not go there) spatial and 1 temporal coordinate; can be real and fictional (who's who depends on the direction of those through-the-wall interactions). "Metaverse" is all universes combined, both real and fictional. I don't remember what the omniverse was, but for now I just assume it as a badass-sounding word. :D

I'm sorry my posts lack their usual order. That's either because I sleep too little, or because I don't use lists. Probably the latter. :gurt:


Well, it's not too far off our old model anyhow. We already knew that there would be AUs attached to fictional universes, such as when a new writer takes over an old character. You don't actually NEED the tesseract thing as long as you understand that wormholes can't travel between world since each one is a separate shape.

Fiction is connected to it's creator-verse by a single, one-way connection that allows for the fiction to be made originally, it's still all tiered by first level and second level and so on, etc. Not a whole lot about our model has changed, we just started to mess with the fourth dimension of every universe involved in it when we didn't really have to.

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:
Sicon112 wrote:
Like I said, there is a connection of sorts between a universe and it's fiction, probably a one way one, at least normally. This allows the fiction to be written. However, I can't really think of a good way to represent that.


Well, just assume that the Void is what prevents the connection between a universe from its fiction being two-way.
Refer to my diagram/explanation and replace my idea of the Void as a circle around only OUR reality with a circle around EVERY reality.


I was just trying to think of something to explain it based on the tesseract model. I get what was going on just fine. Your model is probably better for people who want a simple explanation.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Krika on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:35 pm

The void can just be the walls, the edges on the tesseract model. Also, a proper Tesseract is 8 cubes, not 6.

Universe: A single room, a single story. We are in our own specific Universe. A 3d construct.
Multiverse: All given permutations of a given Universe. A 4d construct.
Metaverse: All given stories, where each story is it's own Multiverse. A 5d construct.

Good definitions?
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:36 pm

Krika wrote:The void can just be the walls, the edges on the tesseract model. Also, a proper Tesseract is 8 cubes, not 6.

Universe: A single room, a single story. We are in our own specific Universe. A 3d construct.
Multiverse: All given permutations of a given Universe. A 4d construct.
Metaverse: All given stories, where each story is it's own Multiverse. A 5d construct. With the same layer structure as our metaverse model.

Good definitions?



I get you implied it, but boom. There we go. That should do nicely.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Dryunya on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:39 pm

Krika wrote:Universe: A single room, a single story. We are in our own specific Universe. A 3d construct.
Multiverse: All given permutations of a given Universe. A 4d construct.
Metaverse: All given stories, where each story is it's own Multiverse. A 5d construct.

Ahem. At the risk of sounding like a nerd (well gee... :geek: ) I should say that a universe is a 4d construct, as it also contains time. Thus, by your definition, metaverse is 6-dimensional.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:41 pm

Dryunya wrote: Thus, by your definition, metaverse is 6-dimensional.


...Which is what I've been saying the whole time.
But regardless, since we can't depict time easily, in any representation, we'll generally end up DRAWING up to five dimensions, with the sixth being implied.
Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:49 pm

Time is meaningless in this case, so don't worry about it guys.
Normal people are the easiest to manipulate. Too smart and they have an annoying tendency to catch wind of your plans, too dumb and, in the words of a certain pirate, "You can never tell when they are about to do something incredibly...stupid."
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Victin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:05 pm

Krika wrote:The void can just be the walls, the edges on the tesseract model. Also, a proper Tesseract is 8 cubes, not 6.

Universe: A single room, a single story. We are in our own specific Universe. A 3d construct.
Multiverse: All given permutations of a given Universe. A 4d construct.
Metaverse: All given stories, where each story is it's own Multiverse. A 5d construct.

Good definitions?

Victin wrote:I think it's more like:
Universe: Limited number of spatial and temporal coordinates (Real and Fictional Multiverse)
Multiverse: Variations of a same universe.
Metaverse: Group of different Universes/Multiverses
Omniverse: Everything that there is
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