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Phew. Procrastinating on.
Just kidding, I'll be sleeping. =]

I suck sooo much at this.
Can I ask you something?
At what point do you think the story (the one that's being written) appears in the fictional world? In which case can it be destroyed (like in the event where all written sources were destroyed, and no one remembers the story anymore)?

Basically, I've been going meta again (and yes, I've been writing the Regulator follow-up), but I think I've Logic Bombed myself.

Also, how much time do you think I still have? -_-"

About 10h left to go.

The way I see the events: The story elements slowly enter the void. If they are destroyed there, they're gone. Hence the preference to send the characters back into their own stories... If given enough time, a whole work would enter the void, disappearing completely from the fiction-side.

Ok, for the sake of discussion I'll spoil my twist. (Please no plagiarism )

From what I've seen on wikipedia, Anansi is acknowledged as the god who was given stories of himself, and thus is begging for some metafiction. In my story, his plan is to write some help to fight the regulator (with infinite nesting to boot). I'm assuming that he can write, being the trickster god with a degree of Medium Awareness, AND I'm assuming that the void's fiction manifests on the same side as reality's fiction (it doesn't contradict the metaverse model, so it's about time we elevate something to canon), so his story appears behind the wall, AND breaks out through the cracks, giving him an infinite army.
The problem is, if the story only exists in Anansi's mind (he also has a scroll in the story, for the record), it doesn't make a story, as the Regulator can just mind-wipe him, and his army should disappear. And the scroll can be destroyed. Anansi is not that badass to fight.

Basically, I have the potential for Mind Screwing metastory, but logically, it always gets a trivial resolution.

I understand your problem. You extrapolate his powers to fit the model, but no matter what you do, the ending is too simple.
I'm not sure I can help with that, though.

Dryunya wrote:Ok, for the sake of discussion I'll spoil my twist. (Please no plagiarism )

From what I've seen on wikipedia, Anansi is acknowledged as the god who was given stories of himself, and thus is begging for some metafiction. In my story, his plan is to write some help to fight the regulator (with infinite nesting to boot). I'm assuming that he can write, being the trickster god with a degree of Medium Awareness, AND I'm assuming that the void's fiction manifests on the same side as reality's fiction (it doesn't contradict the metaverse model, so it's about time we elevate something to canon), so his story appears behind the wall, AND breaks out through the cracks, giving him an infinite army.
The problem is, if the story only exists in Anansi's mind (he also has a scroll in the story, for the record), it doesn't make a story, as the Regulator can just mind-wipe him, and his army should disappear. And the scroll can be destroyed. Anansi is not that badass to fight.

Basically, I have the potential for Mind Screwing metastory, but logically, it always gets a trivial resolution.

But wait... Would a fictional character who writes a story not create a fictional universe one level below itself? If this second level is separated from the first (Anansi's) level with an intact fourth wall, then there's no way Anansi's story can aid him.

Also, Mr A said that he himself cannot write his own stories. If this is a side effect of him being inside the wall (or the void, which is basically the same thing) then Anansi might not be able to write something himself.

I have not studied the metaverse model very well, so my theory might clash with it, but these are just my thoughts.

I thought I explained it in my prior post. His story gets on the same level as the others, and slips through the cracks. And I know that it makes more sense for the void to have no fiction, but Mr. A's answer was vague, so I try to push whatever may make sense to make a story.

If you only have the resolution to be destroying the infinite army at the source and not, I don't know, creating an infinite stream of Regulators, then the only way to make the resolution more interesting IMO is really just to make it really hard to get to the scroll. Sorry, I know I'm not much help. Brain no work.

What do you think happens to the fictional universe if the fiction exists, but forgotten by everyone? I'm not sure if it exists in that state until somebody reads the fiction again. But if we consider that the universes originate from thoughts, then every piece of fiction creates an infinite (ok, maybe number limited to those who read the fiction) universes with minor discrepancies due to different interpretations... That's complicated and not exactly convenient, AND in that case every idea creates a universe. That all is so messed up.

Dryunya wrote:What do you think happens to the fictional universe if the fiction exists, but forgotten by everyone? I'm not sure if it exists in that state until somebody reads the fiction again. But if we consider that the universes originate from thoughts, then every piece of fiction creates an infinite (ok, maybe number limited to those who read the fiction) universes with minor discrepancies due to different interpretations... That's complicated and not exactly convenient, AND in that case every idea creates a universe. That all is so messed up.

Well... I dunno if it makes sense, but this is the way I#m beginning to understand it.

Consider how far back stories go. How long have human beings been telling stories? Ten thousand years? Twelve? Probably a lot more. Stories are intrinsic to our existence. For as long as we could think and communicate we've daubed paint on walls and scribbled in the dirt and talked. So rationally there must be thousands upon thousands of characters and stories that the world no longer remembers... millions, even. Presumably, if the wall existed back then, then they too would've had their own universe, right?

And before stories there are archetypes -the foundations upon which stories are based... or rather, our later attempts to try and categorise stories after the fact, it doesn't really matter, the point is that before stories, there were concepts. These things would be quite... base, really. Stories rooted in primary human emotions - fear, blood, the darkness. Base concepts and ideas and emotions that probably preceded even gods.

...If those universes still exist in some way, beyond the wall, I don't see any reason why the wall breaking down would not affect THEM too. There's no reason why they wouldn't enter reality once the wall falls completely, along with more modern coherent characters. A lot of these very base concepts will begin leaking through too: concepts from the dawn of human history when there was no such thing as morality and we hadn't even begun to consider fiction in terms of tropes. Maybe they'd just be shadows or shapes, vague outlines, maybe not even figures. Like the Freaks in the RP but about a thousand times worse. Our deepest fears given form.

Maybe THIS is what Mister Administrator is most afraid of happening when the wall falls.

That's absolutely not what I asked, but still a good interpretation.

Or perhaps as the stories are forgotten, they break down into their base forms, their base concepts. These concepts muddle together, and join with other broken-down, forgotten stories, creating a "sea" of these base concepts, ideas, and emotions. Infinitely large (because of the infinite stories that have been forgotten), it's sorta the "base" from story-verses are made. With each forgotten story, it grows, because such stories are never truly gone, merely forgotten, perhaps waiting to be remembered. To stories, these might be the Eldritch Abominations (think Discworld's creatures from outside it's reality) of the other side of the wall, the creatures that exist outside of any reality, that are searching for a definition, a story to be defined by once more. Maybe some of them will start out as better defined primal concepts and fears, but not very well defined at that. In these days, we don't really try to define those kinds of things, so they won't have that definition.

Then, if they get through the wall, humans see them, and start telling others about them (assuming first contact is survivable.... ), spreading the stories about them. This gives them their definition, and more and more come through, because all these....things...want that definition, they want to get into this reality and be defined. Being driven by that, they would be capable of infinite cruelty and infinite mercy, but only whichever one is fastest, and gives the strongest story, because that story is all they care about. And once they are defined by the story (in a way that will almost certainly place them in roles as "monsters", "abominations" and other things with negative connotation), they will act according to those stories (again, probably in destructive ways). However, Reality Ensuing will mean that they will slowly stop being defined by stories, which will undoubtedly cause them to panic, and try to create more stories, in a never-ending cycle of chaos.

Haven't the faintest idea whether this should be accurate, but it's really damn scary when you think about it too much.

Dryunya wrote:That's absolutely not what I asked, but still a good interpretation.

Sorry, it was one of those round about trains of thought.

Krika wrote:Or perhaps as the stories are forgotten, they break down into their base forms, their base concepts. These concepts muddle together, and join with other broken-down, forgotten stories, creating a "sea" of these base concepts, ideas, and emotions. Infinitely large (because of the infinite stories that have been forgotten), it's sorta the "base" from story-verses are made. With each forgotten story, it grows, because such stories are never truly gone, merely forgotten, perhaps waiting to be remembered. To stories, these might be the Eldritch Abominations (think Discworld's creatures from outside it's reality) of the other side of the wall, the creatures that exist outside of any reality, that are searching for a definition, a story to be defined by once more. Maybe some of them will start out as better defined primal concepts and fears, but not very well defined at that. In these days, we don't really try to define those kinds of things, so they won't have that definition.

Then, if they get through the wall, humans see them, and start telling others about them (assuming first contact is survivable.... ), spreading the stories about them. This gives them their definition, and more and more come through, because all these....things...want that definition, they want to get into this reality and be defined. Being driven by that, they would be capable of infinite cruelty and infinite mercy, but only whichever one is fastest, and gives the strongest story, because that story is all they care about. And once they are defined by the story (in a way that will almost certainly place them in roles as "monsters", "abominations" and other things with negative connotation), they will act according to those stories (again, probably in destructive ways). However, Reality Ensuing will mean that they will slowly stop being defined by stories, which will undoubtedly cause them to panic, and try to create more stories, in a never-ending cycle of chaos.

Haven't the faintest idea whether this should be accurate, but it's really damn scary when you think about it too much.

So it is :/ I really hope nothing like that is in store.

Oh yay, the solution is simple. If I'm unaware of the consequences of complete destruction of a piece of fiction, so is the Regulator.

Got a little more than 6 hours left. Get those stories in! Move, move, move!

I've almost convinced myself to work on it! Gimme a minute!

Well, in any case, it's pretty much impossible to tell what happens to forgotten fictions. After all, if everyone has forgotten them, how do we know where to look for them? Perhaps Mr. A might know, though.

As for the theory that interpretations create alternate universes, I dunno about that. If someone were to interpret a story in one way and then retell it, like in an oral tradition, then I think that would probably hold true. However, with written or recorded methods of storytelling, ones that remain unchanged over time, I think that the universe should remain the same as well, but our interpretations give us a different viewpoint into that universe. Basically, it's the story TELLING that matters in this case. Make sense?

(Also, I don't think I have time to get this in. I was gonna do something awesome where the Regulator used his psychic powers to create mind-screwy illusions and Anansi was really meta, but Dryu is doing the meta thing already, and I have a lot of stuff to do today, so...)

I'm not forbidding you from going meta. Go wild.
In fact, forget whatever I said about plagiarism. I'm quite dissatisfied with my results, I can't get the story straight, and I'm operating under some weird assumptions, but I don't have the time to get it right - technically I do, but I need to get some sleep. So I'll translate what I have right now, but even if it gets accepted, It will still need lots of editing.

tl;dr: Feel free to use my idea. Your implementation can't be worse than mine.

There. It sucks, but it's done. Now I'm going to collapse and grumble from lack of sleep tomorrow. You should value my efforts, Gurt.

Well... It's been a while... Do we have a winner for this one?

Pixelmage wrote:Well... It's been a while... Do we have a winner for this one?

Or have we all failed, and Anansi got through?

I don't really think Anansi can harm us that much... г_г

Dryunya wrote:I don't really think Anansi can harm us that much... г_г

Just as long as he doesn't cross paths with Quixote, we should be fine.