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So I reckon a number of us think its past time to give these guys a choice.

Okay at this point, we do NOT know what to do about the people who want to stay. Perhaps the creating a world for them to exist in option is still on the cards? We have not yet discussed this, so the following post goes forwards without considering that option. (Not dismissing it, just thinking it can be discussed elsewhere).

We need a post somewhere that all fictional see it, the Cabal included. A journal or something... wherever it is, it has to be where they can all see it. We need TOTAL transparency here, no secrets, no lies, just the straight forward truth.

This needs to be done SOONER rather than later. The Cabal is terrified of us, and thus moving quickly to recruit fictions, but they have not yet entirely heard or understood our side anymore than we have theirs. Poor communication is going to get somebody killed and it’s time to stop. It’s time to be clear.

We need to link ALL of them to a journal post, and it needs to contain the following:

• Who we are and what we’ve been doing all this time (this includes any alternate names we may have used with the fictional on other forums. Maybe just have a list somewhere...)
• Who we’re working for.
• Where they’re from and what they actually are. (They can read their wikipedia entries, we can send them there.)
• What will happen to the world it they stay (and hence why we are so worried about them going back).
• What we know about the Cabal (fairly, good and bad, including the fact we know from their logs that the killing of Tara probably wasn’t them)
• What the plan for sending them back is...
• What our possible plans are for those who DON’T want to go back and that we are trying to plan for that.
• The fact that we are not monsters just out to send them back to whatever hell they crawled out of for s***s and giggles. We do NOT relish destroying people whose lives are better here than they were.

And then at then at the end, we ask them what they want. We offer them a choice of whether they want to stay or go.

Those who do want to go? Great! We can send them back as soon as we have their echoes and Mister A gives the all clear to start writing their fiction. At the very least this might buy us more time. As for the others... well, we haven’t entirely worked that out yet. But we ARE working on it. They need to know this.

I think what we say to the characters should directly address what we now know the Cabal's going to say-- after all, they're representing themselves in their best light; only fair if we fight fire with fire.

Their methods appear to be:

• 1. Seduction (mostly from Juan, but potentially from Morgan as well)
• 2. Reminding them about their endings/ how much they like free will
• 3. Fear (Morgan wanted LJS because she figured he'd cower before someone obviously stronger than him)
• 4. Pointing out their similarities
• 5. Reminiscing about common hometowns
• 6. Killing them (but only Moriarty seems open to that idea)

Therefore, I recommend we respond as follows:

• 1. All right, I don't have any counter-seduction tactics, except maybe exposing the fact that Juan's engaged/ Morgan's involved with Moriarty, so the seduced party is being had
• 2. Making very clear to them our refictionalization parameters:
  
  • That they will NOT return to their original stories
  • That their deaths are NOT mandated
  • That they will have free will
  • That we can craft them a story according to their own specifications (this only works if they recognize the process)
• 3. Assuring them of our strength as allies, and our ability to protect them. If necessary this includes referencing the all-powerful Mr. A, and our ostensible ally Metaneko, whom the Cabal apparently fear.
• 4. Stressing OUR preexisting friendships with them (i.e., so they will be inclined to trust us over the Cabal despite their 'similarities').
• 5. This is the easiest one to turn against the Cabal-- reminding them how much they want to go BACK to that hometown, as it was in their world.
• 6. (This only applies to those on Moriarty's list, since the others won't consider it) Warning them of his possible intentions, and assuring them that we will protect them as best we can.

Protip: discussing the counter-Cabal tactics in the thread dedicated to dialogue with the Cabal is a very bad idea.
Also, dig your lists.

Dryunya wrote:Protip: discussing the counter-Cabal tactics in the thread dedicated to dialogue with the Cabal is a very bad idea.
Also, dig your lists.

I figure if they're planning to infiltrate the chatroom, NOWHERE is safe, so I might as well give up on all the security measures.
And thanks.

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:

Dryunya wrote:Protip: discussing the counter-Cabal tactics in the thread dedicated to dialogue with the Cabal is a very bad idea.
Also, dig your lists.

I figure if they're planning to infiltrate the chatroom, NOWHERE is safe, so I might as well give up on all the security measures.
And thanks.

While you make a good point and we have to be able to counter the Cabal's actions, I also think it is, in it's own way, just as underhanded to twist things to put us in a good light and isn't going to help us in the long run. I think honesty should mean TOTAL honesty, and that includes accepting the fact that in spite of their history, the Cabal have several good points and reasons to stay.

This dialogue should be open to the CABAL too, even if they choose not to involve themselves with it (I don't hold out much hope that they will). We can't do that if we phrase it as some kind of passive aggressive attack on them. That isn't what this is about.

Scarab wrote:

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:

Dryunya wrote:Protip: discussing the counter-Cabal tactics in the thread dedicated to dialogue with the Cabal is a very bad idea.
Also, dig your lists.

I figure if they're planning to infiltrate the chatroom, NOWHERE is safe, so I might as well give up on all the security measures.
And thanks.

While you make a good point and we have to be able to counter the Cabal's actions, I also think it is, in it's own way, just as underhanded to twist things to put us in a good light and isn't going to help us in the long run. I think honesty should mean TOTAL honesty, and that includes accepting the fact that in spite of their history, the Cabal have several good points and reasons to stay.

This dialogue should be open to the CABAL too, even if they choose not to involve themselves with it (I don't hold out much hope that they will). We can't do that if we phrase it as some kind of passive aggressive attack on them. That isn't what this is about.

Well- how about this-

They watch as we chat politely about them, but not like " OMG THEY ARE FREAKING EVIL DUDES." No.

It should be: " They're pretty evil, yeah, but then, they have a good side, right?"

Also, ever heard of the idiom fly on the wall?

Well, a fly on the wall documentary is when people behave if the camera isn't there. WHAT we need to do is chat as IF the Cabal is not there, but we need to be slightly sympathetic to them. SLIGHTLY.

The Wild West Pyro wrote:Well- how about this-

They watch as we chat politely about them, but not like " OMG THEY ARE FREAKING EVIL DUDES." No.

It should be: " They're pretty evil, yeah, but then, they have a good side, right?"

Also, ever heard of the idiom fly on the wall?

Well, a fly on the wall documentary is when people behave if the camera isn't there. WHAT we need to do is chat as IF the Cabal is not there, but we need to be slightly sympathetic to them. SLIGHTLY.

Well... sort of. It's not really a question of sympathy or painting anyone in any particular light. It's about HONESTY. That's not what this is about - it's about creating a journal where we speak the truth as we know it without any bias, voice our own opinions and allow the fictionals to tell us, for certain whether or not they wish to go back so we can start helping the ones who do, and working on plans for the ones who don't.

Let peoples OWN actions define them, not what other people are saying about them. Everyone here has the right to the truth.

Scarab, keep in mind that the Cabal have already or will soon have already contacted all of the fictionals.
What I'm saying is that we don't need to talk to them about the Cabal's reasons for staying, because we should be working on the assumption that they've already done that-- and you can bet that they won't be offering any counterpoints.

I'm not suggesting insulting the Cabal in an open forum where they can see Of course I haven't done that; I'm suggesting offering a fair but opposing viewpoint to theirs in the aforesaid open forum.
We've had some bad experiences with sending mixed messages before (see: Romeo; the Witch's wardrobe incident, etc.); I just think we should present an undiluted pro-going-back message this time. It's not deceptive; it's dialogue.

In a debate, you don't argue the other person's point for him along with his own. That's his job. And they've already done their job, so it's time we got started on ours.

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:In a debate, you don't argue the other person's point for him along with his own. That's his job.

No, but you do acknowledge his arguments and anticipate his counterarguments to your standpoint. We can't just ignore the Cabal's reasons for wanting to stay. But we certainly don't have to make that viewpoint sound appealing.

narrativedilettante wrote:

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:In a debate, you don't argue the other person's point for him along with his own. That's his job.

No, but you do acknowledge his arguments and anticipate his counterarguments to your standpoint. We can't just ignore the Cabal's reasons for wanting to stay. But we certainly don't have to make that viewpoint sound appealing.

That's why I made a whole list (see my first post in this thread), matching their approaches to what our responses should be. We should definitely consider their arguments; we just don't need to argue them for them. Instead, we get to argue against them.

Does this mean that writing bad endings for the Cabal is out of the question?

RotavatoR wrote:Does this mean that writing bad endings for the Cabal is out of the question?

They have to be satisfying. Mr A made it seem like they have to be satisfying for us AND them.
So you can write a bad ending if that's cathartic for you, but it won't be elevated to canon so as far as they're concerned, it doesn't matter.

Besides, they've denied guilt in Tara's death, so I think Dryu's call for their blood is no longer in effect.

Dryu suggested (in the chat room) 'force him to listen to listen to Justin Bieber covers of Britney Spears songs'. I'd LOVE to see that well-written. In fact, if that beats mine, I deserve to swim in boiling nitric acid.

Um, guys, stop compromising me in a dialogue thread. г_г
(Also, my calls for blood did have a condition that the Cabal should be responsible. On the other hand, all we have is their denial. No need to hurry with the conclusions.)

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:We've had some bad experiences with sending mixed messages before (see: Romeo; the Witch's wardrobe incident, etc.); I just think we should present an undiluted pro-going-back message this time. It's not deceptive; it's dialogue.

In a debate, you don't argue the other person's point for him along with his own. That's his job. And they've already done their job, so it's time we got started on ours.

Yes, that is a perfectly reasonable point and makes more sense than what I said.

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:They have to be satisfying. Mr A made it seem like they have to be satisfying for us AND them.
So you can write a bad ending if that's cathartic for you, but it won't be elevated to canon so as far as they're concerned, it doesn't matter.

Agreed, we have to demonstrate our skills here and make a highly believable story or it just won't work. And I think it'd be good to give those who want to go back the chance to say so NOW. Sending them back will, as I'm sure I've said ad nauseum, buy us time, if nothing else. And the first one we have is Todd anyway, right? I presume he's open to going back, but we need a post to ask and be sure.

Whatever we do, we had better get a move on before the communciation issues we're having just cause more confuson. Does anyone know if it might be possible to talk to Joe about getting a post made for this on his website? It seems the most sensible place to do it, and as the leader of this ragtag bunch of misfits (hey, is that on out tropes list yet?) he should be properly informed of the idea anyway.

Also how shall we go about writing this? It seems it should be a big group effort.

Scarab wrote:

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:We've had some bad experiences with sending mixed messages before (see: Romeo; the Witch's wardrobe incident, etc.); I just think we should present an undiluted pro-going-back message this time. It's not deceptive; it's dialogue.

In a debate, you don't argue the other person's point for him along with his own. That's his job. And they've already done their job, so it's time we got started on ours.

Yes, that is a perfectly reasonable point and makes more sense than what I said.

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:They have to be satisfying. Mr A made it seem like they have to be satisfying for us AND them.
So you can write a bad ending if that's cathartic for you, but it won't be elevated to canon so as far as they're concerned, it doesn't matter.

Agreed, we have to demonstrate our skills here and make a highly believable story or it just won't work. And I think it'd be good to give those who want to go back the chance to say so NOW. Sending them back will, as I'm ssure I've said ad nauseum, buy us time, if nothing else.

Whatever we do, we had better get a move on before the communciation issues we're having just cause more confuson. Does anyone know if it might be possible to talk to Joe about getting a post made for this on his website? It seems the most sensible place to do it, and as the leader of this ragtag bunch of misfits (hey, is that on out tropes list yet?) he should be properly informed of the idea anyway.

That's a good idea. Actually, how about this:
Within... as soon as possible, we fine-tune our message on this forum, then PM Joe with the message asking him to put it on the main page (maybe copy that PM to Edward).
THEN we link every character to it.

I have actual work to do at the moment, but I can work on constructing an actual message later tonight or tomorrow, based on the talking points I put in that list.
We might also want to include in the public post a breakdown of which characters are being contacted by which Cabal members-- not in a way that implies we're infringing on their privacy, but so they'll know what they should be on the lookout for.

(Also, if someone more articulate than me gets to this first and crafts an all-purpose message, so much the better. You know who you are, I'm sure.)

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:That's a good idea. Actually, how about this:
Within... as soon as possible, we fine-tune our message on this forum, then PM Joe with the message asking him to put it on the main page (maybe copy that PM to Edward).
THEN we link every character to it.

I have actual work to do at the moment, but I can work on constructing an actual message later tonight or tomorrow, based on the talking points I put in that list.
We might also want to include in the public post a breakdown of which characters are being contacted by which Cabal members-- not in a way that implies we're infringing on their privacy, but so they'll know what they should be on the lookout for.

(Also, if someone more articulate than me gets to this first and crafts an all-purpose message, so much the better. You know who you are, I'm sure.)

By all means, work on your message, I have so much writing and drawing to do right now it isn't funny (why, oh why is nano this month?) I think we've pretty much listed everything that needs to go in there. Once you and anybody else who is trying this are done, we can make a post in the thread for the 'opening dialogues' and then everyone can say their piece and the letter can be adapted as is required. We can also talk to Joe about it, once we have something more concrete to show him.

We also need to discuss exactly how very individual character should be informed of this. As has already been pointed out, some are a bit... unstable and may not respond well.

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:That's a good idea. Actually, how about this:
Within... as soon as possible, we fine-tune our message on this forum, then PM Joe with the message asking him to put it on the main page (maybe copy that PM to Edward).
THEN we link every character to it.

I think we should not link anyone to that message on the home page at all. Like Scarab said, we need to approach every character individually, because some may react differently than others. The message on the home page should be for the Cabal, and the Cabal alone. They are watching us, so we wouldn't have to link them to us even if we could.

RotavatoR wrote:I think we should not link anyone to that message on the home page at all. Like Scarab said, we need to approach every character individually, because some may react differently than others. The message on the home page should be for the Cabal, and the Cabal alone. They are watching us, so we wouldn't have to link them to us even if we could.

Well, yes, I think that EVERY fictional should be linked to the page in the end, it's just that we need to approach every character as an individual, and try to predict their reactions accordingly (I am not looking forwards to that particular email exchange with thewitch, put it like that. ) At this point I don't THINK we're going to get any too extreme reactions, though, so who knows, maybe at this point it's safe to

I say we approach each character idnvidually, say something along the lines of "this is how we've misled you, we're sorry, this is the truth you deserve and the problem we have with your being here, tell us what you want" and link them to the webpage. (I'm still pushing for asking Joe to do it. if anybody should get a say in this, it's him and it would have the most weight coming from there.)

Perhaps we could contact them in the order which we have to write stories for them? Since that's the most convenient order... but then if we got to one who DOESN'T want to go back.... the whole effort would have to stop dead while we waited on figuring out alternatives. I believe Mister A has agreed to look into the possibility for us, which is good of him.

Sweeney is our current characters, and I do believe he at least WANTS to return, or will once he's had a few more sessions.

Keep in mind that most, if not all, of them, we haven't misled at all. Quite a few of them have already got open, explanatory messages from Sicon; the witch and Peter are actively working with us to go back, and we know a number of the others are also eager to return.
(Also, we had a plan for Adam specifically which I think is still the best way to go with him, unless it becomes urgent we send him back sooner, and can be implemented as soon as he makes his next blog post.)

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:Keep in mind that most, if not all, of them, we haven't misled at all. Quite a few of them have already got open, explanatory messages from Sicon; the witch and Peter are actively working with us to go back, and we know a number of the others are also eager to return.
(Also, we had a plan for Adam specifically which I think is still the best way to go with him, unless it becomes urgent we send him back sooner, and can be implemented as soon as he makes his next blog post.)

Wait, we have a plan for Adam? What plan?

I don't want to say it in a public forum. Go to the chatroom and I'll tell you in a private chat.

How did my above post get there? Sorry. I think that is an excellent idea. I have to say I sympathise immensely with the Cabal. We really need to attempt a compromise. It's an old canard, but if we keep shouting 'BLOOD! BLOOD! BLOOD! than we're no better than terrorists. Also, it kind of precludes reasonable discussion. Without that we've got no hope of getting them over that wall.
We shouldn't be too extreme, in other words.

So the following PM will be sent to Ed within a few hours, on the provision that he does not already see it here first and comment that he has done so.

Dear Ed

A few of us have come up with an idea for how we might deal with our situation. We thought it best to forward this plan to you, and ask if you might again forward it to Joe for his opinion. We will NOT move on it until we have both of your say so’s.

We think its past time that our situation with the fictionals was discussed with them. We made the following post in general discussion (you may have seen it), discussing a plan to open a dialogue with ALL of the fictional characters: total honesty concerning who we are and what our plans are, and ASKING the fictions whether they want to go home, or if they wish to take ‘The Third Option’

The third option, as you know we’ve all been discussing, would be a world we would write, based on their own, with an open end, where they can have what they desire –freedom. Essentially we would NOT be changing Mister A’s plan to ‘write them back into their own universe’... we’d just give the fictionals the option to choose HOW we wrote them: whether back to their own world, or into a new context where they would be free from their former restrictions (but also not HERE, where their presence will harm the world.)

We believe this plan would gain us the trust of the fictionals, and give us some weight against the Cabal should they attempt to undermine us. (If we are entirely honest, then they can’t accuse us of misleading people. It’s only a matter of time before the Cabal start misquoting us and confusing the other fictional into thinking we hate their guts and don’t care what we do to them which of course is not true)

The post is here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=540

We would like to ask permission for you to create an Opening Dialogues Section for every fictional and, if possible, have a link to said Section on Joe’s website, where we could communicate with the individual fictionals regarding their personal desires, and work out a solution best suited to them.

Some of us are working on writing the actual Opening Dialogues post now and will post it on the forum where everyone can view and finalise it together. We have no desire to make this into some surreptitious discussion that only a few can read (Meta: and we know you guys may have your own plans that we know nothing of, in which case –veto away!) but we think it’s time for action.

Thank you for reading.

Okay guys. Opinions or are we ready to try this?

Let's do this. Onward and upward, as they say!