Tram wreck

[Dryunya]

So, Joe has made an update.

Apparently, he has received Cabal's apology a month ago (which they conveniently forgot to mention in their emails, but with elephants) and didn't tell us. And he fell out with Ed out of the blue. I'm not really blaming Ed for this, but more on this soon.

What I'm stressing out is that Joe is freaking right the hell out. Like, still. A month after an apology, and follows Mr. A more because he can... I dunno, protect him or something. Ed's fault is, well, not speeching hard enough (but I admit that he tried).

So, first, I need to check the timeline to see if I should still hate Cabal's guts (but don't forget that Moriarty has still killed at least one man). Second, we gotta ask them why they didn't mention that letter (they know Joe didn't post it, so they could at least tell us they sent it).

Meanwhile, I keep hating the Cabal's guts, Joe needs to calm down a bit, and Ed must not make any rash decisions after getting into an argument. Can't stress that enough, because, well, Genre Savvy.

Just stay on the tram, mkay?
Discuss.

[EdwardTheAwesome]

What, you think I'm going to delete the site or something?

Great. Glad you guys know me so well.

[Adell]

I'm personally not seeing the problem. As long as Joe doesn't start silencing people or something...then nothing has changed, and even if he tried to the chat would allow us to be able to discuss things openly anyway, not to mention all the other places we've documented everything that has happened so far (In other words, not even worth worrying about). I'm bummed that this has caused a rift between Joe and Ed, but I'm not gonna let this mess with my own judgements towards the Cabal, Mr.A and our plans forward. I suggest you all do the same.

[Blurred_9L]

I think everyone needs to calm down. I understand people being mad about Joe not telling us the Cabal apologized, but even then the things we should be doing right now (collecting echos, reficking characters who want to go back) haven't really changed, so, yes, we should take this into account in case we need to change our approach, but it not so grave as to start freaking out. Besides, before this happened we were almost sure Broken Base was going to happen, because it was kind of already happening.

So, we might have a problem, but we won't solve it if we're busy fighting among us.

[WackyMeetsPractical]

First of all, hate Joe for lying. Love Edward, because he seems to be the only sensible one at the moment. I have no idea how to feel about the Cabal. I at least owe Morgan an apology. And I hate Joe for making me have to apologize to a known villain. It just feels so icky.

I yelled at Morgan in an e-mail about refusing to do what's right and apologize. And what do I find? THEY DID! And Joe kept it from us! Not cool, Joe. Not cool. I wanted to side with you, because, you're right, the Cabal is evil and they need to go back. But this information would've been great. It would've been awesome. Maybe we could've built some common ground.

But it's apparent you don't want that Joe. And it's apparent that you can't trust us with that vital piece of info.

I am so confused right now. I don't want to be pro cabal. They lied, threatened, manipulated, hacked, and killed. All Joe did was keep a letter to himself. I guess you have that right Joe, but seriously. Did you see that e-mail I sent to Morgan on your behalf? Did you see how much passion went into it? And I was defending you. Now, I don't even think you deserve it anymore. You were safe at home, laying cozy in your bed.

I don't care if you don't accept the apology, Joe. It really wasn't enough. But to keep it from us? To have us fight so hard to get you home when you knew the whole time that you were already home? I'm disappointed. I don't know how many other ways to say it. My heart is literally broken.

I'm going to need some time to think about this. But first, I need to write a certain e-mail to a certain somebody.

[Pixelmage]

What, you think I'm going to delete the site or something?

Great. Glad you guys know me so well.

We're not worried about you hijacking the forum, Ed.
We're worried about your friendship. We don't want you to hijack THAT.

[Dryunya]

I'm pretty sure Broken Base was never a thing among us. More like something that everyone expects.

So, Ed, we need to reconstruct the picture now. Tell us everything you know about the letter. When was it received, what did it say, with elephants.

[EdwardTheAwesome]

I am currently out and about with other friends, I'll tell you more when I get home.

[Pixelmage]

From a idea in the chatroom, we asked Morgan for a copy. Since Ed has read it, if she sends it, he can confirm whether or not it is the same content.

[Scarab]

Maybe not the place for this, but since he's gonna be around more anyway...

Joe? Look, I think Ed was being honest with you, and that’s refreshing, frankly, because honesty has been a bit of an issue amongst the rest of us lately. The guy CLEARLY cares about you an awful lot, it’s not like he’s turning on you and he won’t so long as you don’t ...keep pushing him away and assuing he's on the other side now?

Because I reckon we're all still on the same side, you know, the Reality Not Ending side? I'm pretty sure everyone here is a BIG fan of that particular team going all the way to the finals.

Anyway we’re not going to run off and follow the Cabal just because they made an apparent gesture of good will, we’re not gullible. But... you probably should’ve told us about that letter. I mean, maybe it wouldn’t have made a difference, but we would’ve had the same problem we have now, only a lot sooner, which means we might be closer to fixing this mess. It just seems you weren’t thinking clearly about that, and granted you have a right, because hey, threats against your life from known murderers. It’s not like you didn’t have acceptable concerns that can’t be fixed with just a simple apology.

We’re going to keep looking for more information. I guess in the end, either the Cabal stays (and faces the consequences of their actions, we don’t let murderers walk free) or they go home, and either way whatever we do, we will do it because that is what we think is the best choice for protecting the world. Isn’t that why we’re all here?

We’re all here because of you. We know you’re scared. We’re grateful to you for bringing us together and I can’t speak for everyone, but I know I’m not gonna just up sticks and forget about you now because of one letter, no matter how apologetic. But we HAVE to consider this.

Trust us. You AND Ed.

[narrativedilettante]

Joe, I understand why you didn’t show us the apology letter. You don’t owe the Cabal anything after what they did to you, and an apology isn’t going to make it better. And as for this community that’s formed around you, it hasn’t been around for very long and, given that some of us have expressed sympathy for the Cabal, I could imagine that you might not completely trust us to support you. After all, if we start telling you that you should forgive the Cabal, and you’re not ready to, it could be very uncomfortable for you. You have no reason to trust the Cabal.

But I can tell that Edward really cares about you. It was painful to watch the two of you fight. I’m not going to ask you to forgive the Cabal, but I do encourage you to forgive Edward. Even if you may disagree with him, his heart is in the right place. I really think he just wants you to be as safe and happy as you can be.

And Edward, I hope you can forgive Joe. Yes, I think he should have shared that letter, but if I was in his position I can’t say that I’d act differently. He’s scared, and I get that you’re scared too, and as far as I can tell, you’re going to need to be compassionate to one another. I can tell that you are considering the safety not just of Joe, but all of us, and trying to make the best decision you can. That’s what we’re all doing, ideally, just trying to find the best solution to this terrifying, dangerous conundrum. I hope to hear your comments about what happened soon, and I think I can count on you to be rational about Joe’s decisions as well as the Cabal’s suggestions.

[Dryunya]

Ok. Time for theory damage control.

I assumed the letter was sent sometime near October 20th, just because.

So, here is some of Cabal's timeline extracts:

1. Threatened Joe into whatever state he is in now (with the spam being instigated by Moriarty, IIRC).
2. Killed Pieter Verhaeren (and, apparently, Les Okogwu) (Moriarty).
3. Hacked our site.
4. They receive Mr. A's announcement about the echoes and intend to "tell them what we want".
5. Repeatedly tried to recruit other characters.
6. May or may not have spied on Holmes (the Cinderella incident - it's pretty much unsolved so far).
7. I think the apology letter is sometime around here.
8. Possibly, sent the locator link to Pan (because, you know, it's on Pheeble).
9. Morgana has freaked out majorly after Cinderella's refic, the reason being that we knew a way to send her back. On a meeting, she got in charge of making Pan stay, as he is the one who threatens their cause the most (Exact Words). She mentioned that she wouldn't kill anyone, though.
10. Pan was captured 2 days after their meeting log was found. I need to remind you that not only they've alerted the police, but they've hired a prosecutor, which means their intention was to prove him guilty.
11. Erik has sent an email to Joe (it was posted a couple of days after Pan, but Joe has been holding on to it for some time).
12. Much later (Deanna's plotline interfered) we found that they had a link to Pan's audio. They claim (in the later emails) that removing it wasn't their job.
13. The latest H&P's case, in which Don Juan may be involved. Poirot took a blow to the head for his trouble.

So, the way I see it:
Soon after Mr. A's announcement the Cabal takes action, but realizes that threatening Joe into silence didn't work. After seeing the refic success they realize that preventing everyone from leaving won't help, either (their primary reason for that, apparently, was to leave us without a way to send them back). So, both the apologies and refic compromise is nothing more than damage control, and further recruitment was merely to find more followers.

I still don't trust them.

[Qara-Xuan Zenith]

I'm not really back yet, but I have to say what I'm thinking here while it's fresh.

I'm not going to weigh in on the Mr. A/Cabal part of this argument, because, well, I already have, extensively. Laconic: I'm keeping an open mind on both sides, but I have my bias.

As for the other part of it... well, I think those of you who know me won't be surprised to know where my loyalties lie between Joe and Ed. We all agreed that an apology from the Cabal is nowhere near enough. And we all agreed that Ed was being a huge jerk by siding with the people who threatened his friend's life-- this hits even harder after Joe's video, which elaborated a little on some of those threats.

Seriously, Ed, what the hell? Nobody likes having information held back from them, but not sharing an insufficient letter of lip-service apology is well within his rights.

The thing that seriously confuses me, though, is this: why didn't the Cabal say they sent a letter already when Wacky and others called them out on not making amends with Joe? One would think it would be in their interest to tell us.

[narrativedilettante]

I have some ideas as to why Morgan didn't mention the apology letter in any of her emails to us, but I'll let her make her own excuses.

Also, reviewing the stuff they said regarding the Pan trial, it's looking a lot more sinister than I'd remembered it.

[averagejoe]

Let me make something clear. The apology was for me. Not for Edward and not for the forum, hence why it was written and sent to me, and not to Edward and not to the forum. Of course it's unfortunate that people acted on the assumption that no apology was made, and it's unfortunate that people feel the need to reach out to Morgan for having made this assumption. Ultimately, though, I fail to see how I was responsible for sharing things that were sent to me privately and for preventing such a situation from arising.

Also, it's true that I did not disclose my most recent whereabouts. I was staying with Edward previously, and I thought it would be safer for all involved if no one, including him, knew exactly where I was going when I left. That way, if the Cabal did get to him, he wouldn't have to lie if asked where I was.

[Genndy Oda C.O.G.]

Well, that makes sense. Way to look out for others whilst still being slightly paranoid, Joe.

[WackyMeetsPractical]

Let me make something clear. The apology was for me. Not for Edward and not for the forum, hence why it was written and sent to me, and not to Edward and not to the forum. Of course it's unfortunate that people acted on the assumption that no apology was made, and it's unfortunate that people feel the need to reach out to Morgan for having made this assumption. Ultimately, though, I fail to see how I was responsible for sharing things that were sent to me privately and for preventing such a situation from arising.

Very good point Joe. Excellent even. It's your mail. You have your privacy. We have no right to expect you to share it with us.

Strange though, that that didn't keep you from sharing the hundreds of DEATH THREATS against you. I guess working us up into a frenzy is fine, but the one letter that could've fixed all that you decide to keep to yourself? Joe, are you even thinking? You can't use the privacy card if you've been all about the complete disclosure before. It just doesn't work that way. Did you even consider our feelings? Obviously not.

[Scarab]

Let me make something clear. The apology was for me. Not for Edward and not for the forum, hence why it was written and sent to me, and not to Edward and not to the forum. Of course it's unfortunate that people acted on the assumption that no apology was made, and it's unfortunate that people feel the need to reach out to Morgan for having made this assumption. Ultimately, though, I fail to see how I was responsible for sharing things that were sent to me privately and for preventing such a situation from arising.
Also, it's true that I did not disclose my most recent whereabouts. I was staying with Edward previously, and I thought it would be safer for all involved if no one, including him, knew exactly where I was going when I left. That way, if the Cabal did get to him, he wouldn't have to lie if asked where I was.

We just feel if we'd known about this sooner... well, maybe things wouldn't have been any different, but maybe it would've at least allowed us to work through what we think about them quicker. Not saying you didn't have good reason to, as you say it WAS a personal letter and you know, death threats were made, all but still, we HAVE been operating under the assumption that they were entirely remorseless for what they did and... this suggests maybe they weren't? (Or they were lying their arses off. One of them is responsible for murder.)

What I'd like to know is why the Cabal didn't tell us they has ALREADY apologised to you in ANY of our recent exchanges? Maybe they were trying to ensure this kind of scenario would come about? Thought just saying 'but we DID apologise' would make it too obvious a ruse if it was even believed, but waiting for it to come out like this, as they may have realised it would... Maybe they are playing us, knowing we would divide over our moralty? In which case, by causing this rift between you and Ed... they're succeeding in their plan.

[narrativedilettante]

I get where you're coming from Joe. And I agree with what Wacky said, though not with the tone he said it in. You've shared private letters with us before, so the private correspondence argument doesn't hold a lot of weight. I get the impression you're acting from a place of emotion right now, which is completely understandable given everything you've gone through. However, I think you might be putting emotion above logic, and I'm worried that will put us all in danger.

[The Wild West Pyro]

Ouch. That must smart.

I feel really sorry for you, Joe- I know how painful it is to fall out with a friend. Hopefully you'll be able to reconcile with him, like Poirot and Holmes did.

The Cabal don't seem to be as evil as they used to be now- Morgana is softening up, and Erik is becoming more open. However we are still suspicious about Don Juan and Moriarty.

Also I hope for news on how Adam's refictionalization is going soon.

The Wild West Pyro

[Genndy Oda C.O.G.]

Ouch. That must smart.

I feel really sorry for you, Joe- I know how painful it is to fall out with a friend. Hopefully you'll be able to reconcile with him, like Poirot and Holmes did.

The Cabal don't seem to be as evil as they used to be now- Morgana is softening up, and Erik is becoming more open. However we are still suspicious about Don Juan and Moriarty.

Also I hope for news on how Adam's refictionalization is going soon.

The Wild West Pyro

It was successful. Check its respective thread.

[Qara-Xuan Zenith]

Wacky and Dil, with all respect, I cannot disagree with you more.

Private is private. The fact that he's shared correspondences with us before does not mean we have a right to see all his mail. The death threats, while directed primarily at him, were something he felt we should know-- for one thing, I'd imagine, so we would know how dangerous these people are and not be surprised if we received similar threats ourselves, and for another, because Joe was probably very alarmed when receiving these letters and it didn't occur to him not to share them.

But this so-called apology letter was sent to Joe personally, and by the time that had elapsed, he presumably had time to consider that he did want to keep his private mail to himself, which, as I have said, is well within his rights.

You know what this reminds me of? My freakout the other day about people's real names. I'm over that now, but the idea was: just because we told our names to one person didn't mean we were comfortable having them dropped in an email to someone else. Similarly, just because Joe showed us some of his mail doesn't mean he's comfortable sharing all his private correspondence with us. And it's not fair for us to expect that of him.

I'm inclined to agree with Scarab on why the Cabal played along with our assumption that they hadn't apologized yet, though of course I'll keep an open mind. I can't shake the feeling that we're being played here, that someone's trying to split us up. But WE ARE A TRAM. No amount of secrecy or manipulations can change that.

Right now, I'm disappointed in Ed, but I hope he's still a part of this tram. I hope we all are. We may have our disagreements, but some things are more important. Like saving the world, and being friends.

[narrativedilettante]

I can't shake the feeling that we're being played here, that someone's trying to split us up. But WE ARE A TRAM. No amount of secrecy or manipulations can change that.

Right now, I'm disappointed in Ed, but I hope he's still a part of this tram. I hope we all are. We may have our disagreements, but some things are more important. Like saving the world, and being friends.

This part, I agree with 100%.

[Genndy Oda C.O.G.]

I can't shake the feeling that we're being played here, that someone's trying to split us up. But WE ARE A TRAM. No amount of secrecy or manipulations can change that.

Right now, I'm disappointed in Ed, but I hope he's still a part of this tram. I hope we all are. We may have our disagreements, but some things are more important. Like saving the world, and being friends.

This part, I agree with 100%.

Likewise. We must utilize exceptional tramwork until the end.

[narrativedilettante]

It occurred to me: Keeping a private letter to himself is one thing. But Erik sent a letter to all of us, and Joe nearly didn't show that to us, until Edward finally convinced him, partly because we were making such a ruckus about trying to open communications with the Cabal.

I kind of don't want to drag that up, because he did share it with us, but I think it's valid to note that Joe doesn't have a great record in regards to letting us have all the relevant information about the Cabal. Again, I’ll emphasize that this is COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDABLE. But we need to be aware that Joe is willing to keep information to himself to further his own agenda. Granted, his own agenda seems to be just “don’t trust the Cabal,” and that’s an agenda I can fully support, but still. Much as I respect Joe, I can’t trust him to make our decisions for us. Anything we do, we need to do because we are as informed as possible about the background and the potential consequences.