Tram wreck

[Qara-Xuan Zenith]

Rule 3 violation.

[Scarab]

I can't shake the feeling that we're being played here, that someone's trying to split us up. But WE ARE A TRAM. No amount of secrecy or manipulations can change that.

Right now, I'm disappointed in Ed, but I hope he's still a part of this tram. I hope we all are. We may have our disagreements, but some things are more important. Like saving the world, and being friends.

This part, I agree with 100%.

What you both said. We really can't afford to let this divide us. Whatever happens we're all in this together. Everything I do, I am going to do to try and ensure our future survival (yes even my ideas about collecting one of the wall pieces is part of an attempt to support you all: by making sure we get as much information as we possible can. If that means Mister A gets a little pissed... well, I'm still on his side here, if he can't take one untoward desicion from the people he signed up for this gig, then I guess there's nothing I can do about it.)

Ed, I sympathise but I am NOT deciding to encourage going after a wall piece because I agree with the Cabal or want to repair the wall now. I just want information.

I sympathise with Joe, too. This is all such a horrible mess. Now is NOT the time for us to be turning on the people who care about us. Even if that means we have to negotiate about a few things we'd rather not negotiate about. When you start second guessing the people who love you, that's when everything starts going wrong...

[Victin]

Rule 3 violation.

What was this about?

[Qara-Xuan Zenith]

Rule 3 violation.

What was this about?

I called Ed out on an immature post that was simply being passive-aggressive about his breakup. And then went on to remind him and everyone that, ex or no, we're all a tram here. That regardless of our personal disagreements, it's important we stick together.
I'm sorry, Vic, I said it better the first time around. Ed's passive-aggressive post is still there, but I'm not going to quote it again, because apparently quoting Rule 3 violations qualifies to have my post sent down the memory hole.

To whichever mod saw fit to delete it: my only intention was to make a plea for unity.

[averagejoe]

Rule 3 violation.

What was this about?

I called Ed out on an immature post that was simply being passive-aggressive about his breakup. And then went on to remind him and everyone that, ex or no, we're all a tram here. That regardless of our personal disagreements, it's important we stick together.
I'm sorry, Vic, I said it better the first time around. Ed's passive-aggressive post is still there, but I'm not going to quote it again, because apparently quoting Rule 3 violations qualifies to have my post sent down the memory hole.

To whichever mod saw fit to delete it: my only intention was to make a plea for unity.

I deleted the post. I'm upset with Ed for very obvious reasons, but I didn't read his friendship post as passive-aggressive, and your response was a bit personal and I really don't want to strain my relationship with Ed further. So, as I said in the edit, rule 3.

[Pixelmage]

Well, I didn't see the "Rule 3 Violation Post", so I can't really input on that...

But what we don't really need right now is to fight among ourselves. We should be open to discuss all options without degrading into a personal war... We're a team and we should be open to all paths if we are to find the right one.

[JRPictures]

So this is what happens when you go out on a Sunday on a bus and train trip to see a movie and hang with friends.

Anyways seeing as this had died down a bit I guess. There's not much I could say anyway except WOW, I didn't see this coming.

Other than that, I still don't trust the Cabal. In fact who actually does trust them anyway here?

[H22]

I trust them, actually.

So this is what happens when you go out on a Sunday on a bus and train trip to see a movie and hang with friends.

Anyways seeing as this had died down a bit I guess. There's not much I could say anyway except WOW, I didn't see this coming.

Other than that, I still don't trust the Cabal. In fact who actually does trust them anyway here?

Joe : I'm not going to patronise you about the apology. I have to say, however, bearing in mind yoyu released all the threats... Nut that's all in the past now. The only effect that part of your ecision had on me is to make me respect the Cabal more; theey could have tried to manipulate us and made us distrust Joe, but they didn't. I have said this many times now, but THERE IS NO NEED FOR TRAMWRECK. This has nothing to do with us; we can only pursue whatever policies we think right, regardless of Joe/Ed infighting. Let's get that wall piece! GO TRAM METAGUARD!!!

[Sicon112]

Well, I can't really say I'm too surprised about this whole thing. Looks like just about what people predicted a while back.

A basic breakdown on the way things stand right now: Joe screwed up. Despite the fact that the letter was sent to him privately, he SHOULD have let us know it existed. At least he should have told us when he saw us confronting Morgan about it. However, the interesting thing there is that Morgan never said a word about any letter of apology when we argued with her over it. Was it sent by one of the Cabal without the rest knowing? Perhaps Erik again. Interesting thought. We can ask the Cabal about it, but I wonder if we will get a valid answer. I can see many situation where it would be in their best interest to lie. However, we shall see what happens.

This shows us that twice now Joe has not, of his own accord, released useful information to us. There is really nothing we can do about things on this count. We take things he says from now on with a grain of salt, perhaps, but we have no way to discover information he leaves out unless it is given to us by another source. However, if he wants us to trust him again, he will probably have to take every opportunity to reveal various pieces of information as they come.

Mr. A is quite obviously not going to tell us everything, but his actions in that direction are predictable and understandable. Ed has shown signs of not looking at this from a detached point of view as well, so it is now his turn to prove me wrong on that score. Finally, the Cabal are desperate people who have, inside their stories, turned to villainous actions to get what they want, and have openly admitted that they will do whatever they deem necessary. They are looking at this from a VERY emotion based POV and are probably going to be prone to unpredictable actions in the future. None of them can be trusted.

In the end then, the only people in this situation who are reliable are the Metaguards. We can only fully trust each other here. Let's keep it that way, guys. We are a tram, we have been a tram, and if there is anything I can do about it we will end this game as a tram!

[H22]

I can't quote your post, Sicon, and I agree with most of it wholeheartedly. However, a ) I would ssay only Erik acted entirely from desperation in his story and b) I find your claim they are unpredictable impossible to understand. Peple with only their own interests at heart are the MOST predictable, for they will only act according to a known agendum. People like Joe, somwhat erratic and irrational, are impossible to read. When one looks at something from a realist, interest-based POV one is inherently NOT being emotional about their decisions.

[Sicon112]

I can't quote your post, Sicon, and I agree with most of it wholeheartedly. However, a ) I would ssay only Erik acted entirely from desperation in his story and b) I find your claim they are unpredictable impossible to understand. Peple with only their own interests at heart are the MOST predictable, for they will only act according to a known agendum. People like Joe, somwhat erratic and irrational, are impossible to read. When one looks at something from a realist, interest-based POV one is inherently NOT being emotional about their decisions.

I'm saying that they are very dangerous should they be backed into a corner. They are very VERY desperate to stay here, and they will likely take extreme measures in order to ensure they do. They have already admitted that they are going to do whatever it takes, so...

Essentially, they will only be trustworthy if it is in their best interests to do so, and if we panic them it is going to be very dangerous.

[OneSteve]

to be honest, the impression I got from that video was that it was a lovers' spat between Ed and Joe. Since I've never been one for getting involved in other people's relationships, what say we all sit this debate out until they make up on their own?

and to answer JRPictures' question, yeah, I pretty much trust the cabal. at least they've been straightforward with us (in comparison to mr administrator, I'm talking about. like I said, I'm not mixing in with ed and joe until they get back together of their own accord. none of my business.)

[Scarab]

to be honest, the impression I got from that video was that it was a lovers' spat between Ed and Joe. Since I've never been one for getting involved in other people's relationships, what say we all sit this debate out until they make up on their own?

and to answer JRPictures' question, yeah, I pretty much trust the cabal. at least they've been straightforward with us (in comparison to mr administrator, I'm talking about. like I said, I'm not mixing in with ed and joe until they get back together of their own accord. none of my business.)

Yeah I think that's pretty much the desicion we've come to. I mean, it's not really any of our business. I hope they can figure stuff out, though...

And personally, I still trust the Cabal about as far as I can throw them, and I have a really weak throwing arm. Just because they sound straightforward doesn't mean they're being honest and we still have no proof one way or the other on that front.

[TheJester]

and to answer JRPictures' question, yeah, I pretty much trust the cabal. at least they've been straightforward with us (in comparison to mr administrator, I'm talking about. like I said, I'm not mixing in with ed and joe until they get back together of their own accord. none of my business.)

I FREAKING LOVE YOU BECAUSE OF THIS!

[eli_gone_crazy]

I've kept my mouth shut about this for a couple of reasons; mainly that I needed to think, and I didn't want to confuse others. Now I have reached a point where something must be said.
Frankly, I'm angry at all of you.
First, Joe, I get it. What you are going through is more than anyone can ask of you. But, if you are so determined to go it alone, why in the name of heaven did you drag us, and more importantly, ED into this? You are obviously close; you're going to throw that away over him worrying about you? We're here to help and you turn us away.
Second, Ed, I get it. You are trying to balance beliefs and friendships, but he's your friend. why drag him through the mud like that? Then, instead of figuring out the problem, you give up. seriously, I am dissapoint.
Third, Mr. Administrator. I am most dissapointed in you. You ask us for help, then withhold information. You expect to be respected, but give us none. You treat us like idiots, but demand our utmost attention. You need our help, so act like it.

Lastly, to the metaguards. I love you guys. You are awesome like that. But we can't just sit by and let everything else happen. We need to start moving again. Stop reacting to everything, and make trouble.

[Dryunya]

I don't even anymore.
You all Moral Bombed me into a broken mess over the last 2 days. Live with it.

[Scarab]

I've kept my mouth shut about this for a couple of reasons; mainly that I needed to think, and I didn't want to confuse others. Now I have reached a point where something must be said.
Frankly, I'm angry at all of you.
First, Joe, I get it. What you are going through is more than anyone can ask of you. But, if you are so determined to go it alone, why in the name of heaven did you drag us, and more importantly, ED into this? You are obviously close; you're going to throw that away over him worrying about you? We're here to help and you turn us away.
Second, Ed, I get it. You are trying to balance beliefs and friendships, but he's your friend. why drag him through the mud like that? Then, instead of figuring out the problem, you give up. seriously, I am dissapoint.
Third, Mr. Administrator. I am most dissapointed in you. You ask us for help, then withhold information. You expect to be respected, but give us none. You treat us like idiots, but demand our utmost attention. You need our help, so act like it.

Lastly, to the metaguards. I love you guys. You are awesome like that. But we can't just sit by and let everything else happen. We need to start moving again. Stop reacting to everything, and make trouble.

I said a while ago that I thought everyone has an agenda. In our case the agenda is 'save the world' but we're all secretly (or not so secretly) thinking 'but I want to do things in a way I deem morally acceptable/justifiable/excusable/or even just plain cool. I want to play this game MY way and make my choices actually matter. Make things happen in a way they wouldn't otherwise. Change things.'

And there is nothing wrong with that guys, on the contrary it's what makes us engender all the cliches: that Rosseau Was Right, that Power of Friendship conqures all except really crappy typos, that We Are Not Alone... And also What You Are In The Dark, Magnificent Bastard, Darkness Induced Audience Apathy etc... all those tropes that brought us here, good and bad. That's what makes us people. That's what makes us this messed up, brilliant, terrible, rediculous species, the species that celebrates Shark Week.

I feel like a bit of a dick right now, I don't like some of the choices I've had to make and I think I've made some mistakes. I don't know what choices I might have made if the situation were different i.e. if this were really real, but I have to deal. This is too important. We're all wavering and arguing instead of trying to find some evidence as to exactly who is right. We just... seem to have ground to a stop Or maybe I'm just missing the activity where it happens, I dunno...

[JRPictures]

Well It was a rhetorical question. But moving on. No one is entirely in the wrong here.

Ed was doing what he thought was best and so was Joe. And besides Joe was threatened by the Cabal on several occasions, so his attitude against them is very much justified.

As for my feeling towards the Cabal. I still don't trust them, they may have been straight with us and tried to apologise. But let's not forget these guys sent death threats to Joe, are desperate by all means to stay in the real world and want Pan to be in prison.

I think I've made my point.