Defictionalization Theory

[Pixelmage]

I... Have mixed feelings about posting this, but keeping this to myself is driving me crazy. I don't want to create discord, but I also don't feel like I'd be helping if I keep hiding stuff from everyone... Please don't hate me.

We have a problem on our hands, and so far the only Theory we have that is defined and workable is to send the characters back. We know it's conjecture and there is no proof. So, what if we try to follow the opposite line of thought to it's conclusion? Having the two theories open to compassion will allow us to make a better decision.

So far, the problems we have to address:

• The Wall is cracked.
• Characters and Tropes are moving into this world.
• Echoes are present, therefore, the cracks and/or the presence of characters and/or tropes has an effect on reality.

About Echoes, we know that they are a combination of both Characters and Tropes. No established Echo is composed of only 1 piece, therefore, it is safe to assume that if we eliminate one of the pieces, the Echoes as they exist at the time of this writing will cease to spawn. I believe the ones already present will require retrieving nonetheless, but eliminating even 1 piece of their composition should stop new ones from forming.

As far as effects on reality are concerned, Echoes are all we have. If they are the first step in the chain of events, stopping their formation completely nullify the chance of the next event occurring. If they are a sign only, they are still created by some manner of underlying reason, that reason being what we need to address and the core of this theory.

Observing the two sides in order: Tropes are both temporary and non-discrete. They represent events and concepts. We know they are leaving the Wall along with characters. But, being non-discrete, they cannot be contained. You can't lock up "Rule of Funny" in jail, it has no physical shape. But, as it flows out, it affects the world indiscriminately. To illustrate this point;

• "Rule of Drama" did not allow Poirot and Holmes to meet at the beginning, not before both characters could be established in their own right.
• Don's "Heroic Resolve" along with "Plot Armor" made sure he didn't die from either shot to the chest: If he did the narrative would not carry any weight, it would simply be realism.
• Moriarty is accused (guilty) of murder. But the Police has no hold over him as it would on other case, because if so, we'd be left without a "Big Bad", meaning he is protected by "Plot Armor" as well.

Tropes are also temporary: The "Crowning Moment of Funny" invoked by Cheshire when he hacked into the Cabal's chat was an event that took place and was gone. We remember it, but the "Moment" is gone, no longer there. It was invoked, took it's place and went away.
This indicates that those tropes are being supplied, likely through the cracks. If the supply line is cut, the tropes on this side would dissipate, ending the Narrative Hold over these characters.
This also means that, even though they are here now, they are still puppets being shackled by their stories. All their talk about free will is useless as they are still being controlled by the tropes leaking through the cracks.

Characters are Discrete entities. This means that they are physical, therefore can be contained. They cannot affect the world in any way other than those allowed by physics. As discrete entities and striped of the narrative tropes, they have no more hold over this world than any of us. Their personal tropes, as it might be pointed out, are not different from ours. Moriarty can't be guilty of cracking the wall on account of being a Chessmaster, if you claim that, you must by definition claim that Sicon is as guilty of breaking the wall on account of being a Chessmaster himself. As a physical body, if he exists, he is bound by this reality's rules. Unless the reality is being bent by tropes, he holds no power over the laws of physics than we do.

This addresses a counter point, it is the concept of "Life Imitates Art". We have tropes ourselves, and tropes are willingly and passively invoked around us all the time. The issue I believe to be the real problem is an uncontrolled flow of tropes into the world, being untied to a discrete entity and able to affect everything around them. Tropes tied to a character's behavior are no different to tropes tied to a Metaguard'd behavior. The tropes making this crisis as a whole play out like a story are. They are not affecting a character or event, these tropes are affecting reality directly.

Having said that I state the theory: Sealing the wall will cease the flow of stray tropes into reality, cutting the supply of narrative rules that interfere with our world's rules and eliminating the "Plot Armor" protecting the characters present on this side.

This implicates that "Reality Ensues". Once sealed, the fictional characters on this side will no longer fit that designation, being stripped of the tropes that make them fictional, they'll be consolidated as real, hence, defictionalized. This is not about bringing characters from the other side, just a method to consolidate the current one's presence here.

Looking at a specific case to show that this is not exactly a bad deal to us: Moriarty without "Plot Armor" will go to jail. Simple as that. We just need to point the police in the right direction and real world rules will make sure it's carried out. It's not like he has the same resources here as he has in his canon, thus, he can't really hide or weasel his way out without some serious Handwaving... That will not come because that trope event is no longer available! Also on Moriarty, we know he is guilty of murder, therefore, by our own law if we send him to another place where he's not longer accessible by law enforcement we'll be aiding a criminal. That is also a crime in it's own right.

This will crush the Cabal, completely. There is no reason a single sane fictional would choose to stay if they're not allowed their perks. "Reality Ensues" is a very possible "Fate Worse Than Death" we can invoke on them by letting them stay if the theory is correct.

This assumes that the characters are inherently compatible with this reality. That is evidenced by the fact that the world didn't implode or anything. If they are able to walk, breath, talk and eat the same food as us in this world, it indicates that they are compatible with our physical rules. As to Pan's non-human ageing speed, that would imply he is different from human. There are two tropes that could account for that by leaking with him: PlotRelevantAgeUp and SoapOperaRapidAgingSyndrome.

As to the ultimate point pro-sending them all back: Reality might end if this is wrong.
First: There will be no proof of either side. Proof means an end to the dilemma, thus, boring. This is conjecture, as is the Apocalypse Scenario. But, we have two meta-facts that allow both to be right, meaning it's up to us to decide which path to take.
The Meta is as follows:

• The characters are not really here - This means there's no physical character to stay around, therefore it makes no sense for them to stay on this side in the end. They have to go back. This backs the Apocalypse Scenario. Even if we decide to take this Defictionalization path, we may be able to persuade all fictionals to go back through plot, upholding this meta regardless of the path.
• The Apocalypse is not on the budget - Say we seal the wall NOW. The GMs can't obliterate all reality to make the ARG believable, thus, if we do allow one or more fictionals to stay, and actually seal the wall with them on their side, the "end of the world" theory will be disproved OR we'll have a questline to re-break it, send them, and then re-seal it. This means that if the endgame really means the end of the world and we decide to through this path, something will have to happen to make this theory impossible.

If there are multiple endings, then these are OUR choices. Not the GM's. In this case, it's not like it's either "Game Over" or "Golden Ending", both endings would be the only canon. Taking our time and fighting among ourselves will only delay it, not make us get the "best one", the best ending will be the one we choose to make.

As always, do not fully quote such massive wall of text, and I suggest we take the Meta Paragraph discussion to the chatroom.

[TheJester]

I... Wow... I actually really like this idea. I really do.

[Sicon112]

A quick summary, then. Pixie is giving an alternative to the idea that the characters are pulling their stories with them. Instead, tropes are reaching out and affecting the characters. There are a couple problems with this.

First, these tropes only work when near the characters. Why is it that the tropes are following them specifically instead of just generally triggering on everything if the characters are the same as humans? Second, why are tropes unrelated to any of their stories acting on them? If only the tropes related to their stories were in play, then it would seem more likely that they had merely not fully disconnected with their origin stories, something which could be easily rectified with the wall's closing. However, random tropes are driving their actions forward, many totally unrelated to their origins. This lends more weight to the theory that their nature is somehow different, and they are generating these tropes as the situation demands it.

Anyhow, I'm just playing devil's advocate here for now.

[Adell]

As i've said with Pixel over the chat, the theory is sound but I believe it's banking a lot on the idea that the tropes are bleeding over into the real world. Personally, I find it easier to believe that these events and situations are happening and we, AS TROPERS, are compelled to link them to tropes. It's not the tropes that are making the events, it is US applying the tropes to the event. It's like the reffics, by having us intentionally apply certain tropes to them, we're creating the bridge necessary to return to the fictional side of the wall. WE'RE the ones making the tropes and linking them to characters and ideas. If that's true, sealing the wall would not effect that situation at all. We'd still be applying tropes to situations and events like we always do.

[Scarab]

I think you were right to post this, even if you worry that it may cause discord. Honesty is key right now, and I think the more that’s out in the open, the better,

As to the theory itself... it makes an uncanny amount of sense of you ask me, and it’s a good bit of logical thinking so kudos to you, Pixel.

In a way it’s almost like they’re dragging the essence of their world (the tropes) out with them as they cross the wall in order to exist here. The tropes are like shields protecting them from reality. Creating small pockets of their universe in ours, as they once said in Star Trek: TNG: “like putting a fish in a bucket of water,” Of course the fish will never be able to survive on dry land... but it’s possible that characters can exist without their tropes.

It’s obviously a LOT easier for us to close the wall right now than to send abck the characters (if we were all set on this finding the wall pieces thing, we’d be done already and just have to sit around twiddling our thumbs to see if an apocalypse comes) As you suggest, if the wall is repaired, deficitonalisation may just happen naturally if allowed enough time. Romeo, Don Quixote and the Witch continue to operate according to extraordinary amounts of good luck that can only be accounted for by Plot Immunity

As i've said with Pixel over the chat, the theory is sound but I believe it's banking a lot on the idea that the tropes are bleeding over into the real world. Personally, I find it easier to believe that these events and situations are happening and we, AS TROPERS, are compelled to link them to tropes. It's not the tropes that are making the events, it is US applying the tropes to the event. It's like the reffics, by having us intentionally apply certain tropes to them, we're creating the bridge necessary to return to the fictional side of the wall. WE'RE the ones making the tropes and linking them to characters and ideas. If that's true, sealing the wall would not effect that situation at all. We'd still be applying tropes to situations and events like we always do.

Also, this. I do think however that tropes really ARE leaking through, heck, Mister Adminsitrator has actually been able to define them, and wasn't that the point of the original Echo Chamber experiment? To make sure 'tropes were incororpated into peoples daily lives' (for whatever reason)?

Essentially this is one more idea, one more theory amongst many theories, and I’m really not sure at this point whether or not theories matter anymore. Not so long as we don’t have any concrete evidence to suggest which of them might be right. It’s all just a bunch of maybes.

[Pixelmage]

As i've said with Pixel over the chat, the theory is sound but I believe it's banking a lot on the idea that the tropes are bleeding over into the real world. Personally, I find it easier to believe that these events and situations are happening and we, AS TROPERS, are compelled to link them to tropes. It's not the tropes that are making the events, it is US applying the tropes to the event. It's like the reffics, by having us intentionally apply certain tropes to them, we're creating the bridge necessary to return to the fictional side of the wall. WE'RE the ones making the tropes and linking them to characters and ideas. If that's true, sealing the wall would not effect that situation at all. We'd still be applying tropes to situations and events like we always do.

To counter that vision, there is a Gurt post stating that Tropes do leak through: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=208&p=9788#p9788

As for Sicon's points, they are very much valid. I can't really explain them any other way than saying that they are still somewhat connected to what is happening to the other side of the wall...

Imagine it as a lifeline, a safety harness around them, that is tied to the fictional side. That is their connection to their canon. As the tropes flow through, they follow those lifelines to the characters closest to the wall, affecting the first thing they hit on this side. As these characters are the closest to the wall, it's bound to affect them instead of hitting other elements of the world... Unless the flow keeps growing to the point where it breaks the wall, with all the consequences that would entail.

This lingering connection also explains why we are able to refictionalize them. Otherwise, I could write a story about any metaguard and reading it to him would yank him to the other side. In writing the refictions we are using this lifeline to pull them back the way they came, sealing the wall would also cut that, which would still resolve the issue.

Of course, this is what I theorize to fit this topic. It is entirely possible that the characters themselves are different, in which case the correct theory is the Refictionalization Path. Though maybe even if they are different, they'll not be harmful once their tropes are cut out.

[Qara-Xuan Zenith]

There are a couple of holes in that theory, but I only have the time/energy at the moment to point out the biggest one:

If it's true that tropes are leaking through, then it must follow that they are doing so in the same manner as the characters. While it's true that some tropes, such as Crowning Moment of Awesome, are by their very nature temporary, others are lasting. And it doesn't make sense to suggest that sealing the wall somehow revokes those tropes such as Plot Armour and Rule of Drama.

So if we seal the wall, then either the characters will somehow magically go back with the tropes-- which I doubt-- or their tropes will be stuck here with them, in which case we'll be in SERIOUS trouble. Stuck here with Moriarty, for example, who is now a Big Bad with Plot Armour in the real world, and no way to get rid of him.

[Pixelmage]

Qara has made a point in the chatroom I'm unable to counter.
Let's assume that flimsy things such as Plot Armour and the like will dissipate and we'll be done with it. I'm handwaving, nothing to see here.

Assume the characters are harmless and the tropes are not.
Well... We're writing Refics containing Characters and Tropes from the Echoes. If we fail to send one character, the tropes we'd send him with in that Refic would still be locked on this side. These won't dissipate, because they're grounded as Echo pieces, harming reality. Therefore, it is not an option to allow a character to stay.

I can't counter that. Unless someone can, I have no idea how to defend this theory. And if someone can defend from this, then we'll have to address the fact of whether or not "Plot Armour" will dissipate.

[Lordxana0]

Some tropes naturally exist in the real world without the wall breaking through. So where does that fit in? Also I am pretty sure Cheshire runs on rule of funny in order to do anything.

[Sicon112]

Some tropes naturally exist in the real world without the wall breaking through. So where does that fit in? Also I am pretty sure Cheshire runs on rule of funny in order to do anything.

As I said in the chat room, tropes "appearing in reality" are only an illusion. We, by our natures, are predisposed to creating coincidences that seem to be tropes, and therefore are also more likely to include the coincidences in fictional works as tropes. Tropes that supposedly appear in reality are, however, nothing more than descriptions that we give the event after the fact. In fiction, they seem to be a force of their own, though the strength of that force varies depending on the work.