Personal Conclusions

[Scarab]

I’m not sure if it’s right to make a new thread for this but... oh with elephants, I have stuff to say. Look, we’re in a bind here, and here are the conclusions I have come to. Feel free to share your own.

The Wall Will Fall on Dec 21st. Cue end of reality. We have two options available to us to prevent this.

1) We find all the echoes, refic all the characters and then allow Mister A to fix the wall. Ideal outcome: reality is saved.
Problem with this: NO effing WAY do we have time to do this. (NB: I notice guestuser17’s connections are getting us a lot of stuff right now, but even if we DO get all the echoes, it’s still going to be difficult to refic everyone in time.)

2) We find the wall pieces. The wall is immediately sealed. Whoever was left here is stuck here whether they wanted to be or not. Ideal outcome: Reality is still saved.
Problem with this: This might doom the world if Mister A is right. We have no proof that this is true OR untrue, and that, ladies and gents of the ARG, is the big sticking point. THAT’S the ultimate problem around which all of our opinions and moralities and personal choices circulate.

So what conclusion have I come to right now? I’m aware I can’t speak for everyone, so you know, feel free to correct me here, but I reckon fear is a pretty big factor for a number of us. It certainly is for me. No matter whether you sympathise with, one thing is clear: Mister A’s side of the argument posits that the world will end if we do not do as he says.

Now you can say what you like about what that says for his morality but the fact is the seed of doubt was planted and it took root. I don’t want to risk the world (of course, letting the Cabal stay carries its own bag of moral problems, as maybe they don’t DESERVE our trust, but that’s not the point I’m trying to make.)

Mister A controls us through Fear. It really doesn’t even matter if he’s doing it deliberately or not, if he is as Morgan implies a tyrant, or just bad at communication, what matters is that he planted the seed. We all have our personal feelings, and this affects many of our judgements but the ultimate controlling factor in this is that if we fail, we may fail our world

So then... what are we going to do? Is it worth risking reality in order to do the right thing? Is the cowardly thing to do in this case, the only truly right action we can take? We’ve been asking this question since the beginning, but here it is again, rearing its ugly head and we still have NO answer. And we are seriously running out of time.

It’s possible that our time limit has, if not made morality null and void, then at least made it take a backseat to our ultimate survival. I don’t know. I’m as stuck here as I ever was. But if I have to pick a side? I think I have to choose to be an amoral coward who tried to save the world, rather than a brave person who took actions which she KNEW may have jeopardised it. This doesn't exactly make me feel better about myself, but it has the advantage of drastically improving our odds of being around to feel anything December 2013.

[narrativedilettante]

The safest option, to me, seems to be this:

1. We attempt to gather all the remaining Echoes as quickly as we can and refictionalize all the characters. I believe we could pull this off.

2. At the same time, we position ourselves to take the wall pieces quickly. We don't actually take them unless we reach, say, December 20th and it looks like we won't be able to get all the characters refictionalized in time. Then, and only then, do we send people out to reintegrate the wall pieces.

NOTE: This plan is assuming that we send the Cabal home as well as the others. I still have my doubts about whether sending them home is the right thing, but I definitely feel it would be the safest thing.

[Blurred_9L]

I was talking with Adell last night and my position is pretty much what you said, Narra.

I believe we should concentrate or efforts on refictionalizing the remaining characters, Cabal included (though, they'll probably be the last to refic, what with the moral issues and all that), but we shouldn't completely ignore the wall pieces. At the very least, it would be useful to know where they are exactly in the real world, so if anything comes up, not just the deadline like Narra says, we sort of have a backup plan.

It's not going to be easy to divide ourselves for both tasks, but, hey, we already have one wall piece less to worry about, so maybe that'll make things a little bit simpler.

[screenstorming]

Scarab, this is a great analysis of the problem. One way to look at it is to consider what we mean by "the world" and who is in it -- whose lives are at stake? What will happen to them? These questions are already part of the discussion with respect to the characters, but overall, it's a pretty open question. It could tip the scales one way or another, including on how the metaguards spend their time and the decisions they make.

Is there a way to prove Mr. A right or wrong? Einstein came up with a theory of relativity that allowed a lot of things to be calculated that couldn't previously be calculated. Maybe we could do that with some kind of metaverse theory that takes into account the metaguards and their relationships to Mr. A and the others?

Another off-the-wall idea is to refic Mr. A into a less erratic, hostile, unknowing, fear-mongering kind of metaphysical being. It would be difficult, especially given all the instantiations, and the lack of a coherently defined reality. It seems almost like reality is being used as a MacGuffin and maybe the problem is within his own psyche and we are buying into a very complex delusional system. It's not the first time fear-mongering types have deluded large groups of people to buy into end-of-the-world schemes!

Maybe we could ask the Minds and Matters therapist to diagnose Mr. A? In fact, the whole reason I ended up here was a tweet from Mr. A, linking me to her blog article that discussed the problem of hard-to-make diagnoses, including the "Truman Show delusion," which I'd linked an article about to Mr. A, since he was concerned about the disruption of reality. http://mindsandmatters.ezblog.twwf.info/?p=95

This conversation connects in to the metaverse thread, and several other conversations. It's all so complicated. But one thing to consider is that metaguards actually have a lot of total time over the next few weeks, that could be used in a variety of ways. They could allocate more or less of their personal time (or money!) to Mr. A's requests, for example. They could ask friends for help or hire staff to assist. The discussion of morality does partly come down to people's own interests and how they decide to use their time. Even Mr. A's threats are an attempt to appeal to the interests of the metaguards, however crudely.

[SpiritfChaos]

Has anyone considered this?

Mr. Administrator exists inside the Fourth Wall. If the Wall is destroyed, there's a chance he might be destroyed with it. How do we know he isn't just lying about the world ending to save his own ass?

[eli_gone_crazy]

Has anyone considered this?

Mr. Administrator exists inside the Fourth Wall. If the Wall is destroyed, there's a chance he might be destroyed with it. How do we know he isn't just lying about the world ending to save his own ass?

What prevents us from trying to help him though?
... It would be a bit low for him to trick us, but he would be attempting to survive.

[Scarab]

Has anyone considered this?

Mr. Administrator exists inside the Fourth Wall. If the Wall is destroyed, there's a chance he might be destroyed with it. How do we know he isn't just lying about the world ending to save his own ass?

What prevents us from trying to help him though?
... It would be a bit low for him to trick us, but he would be attempting to survive.

What Eli said, it's not like it'd be strange for people to do questionable things for the sake of their own survival. (I mean, jeeze, honestly, i guess if that's the case, he could've just ASKED for out help but... even if he would concievably have thought of that, I'm not 100% convinced we'd all have been willing to help him at the start.)

Still at this point I really can't see how the wall that keeps reality and fiction from blurring together falling can in any way NOT be dangerous. Best case scenario? The world doens't actually end, and we have several centuries worth of terrible nightmares running around. Worse case scenario? The wall falling has some kind of knock on effect, like removing the sticks in a game of kerplunk, or unravelling the tapestry of the world so that it all falls apart.

We may not understand what the rules governing reality are as well as we understand the ones that govern fiction, but we know they must EXIST and they must exist for A REASON. Get rid of those rules and we're in trouble...

[screenstorming]

Still at this point I really can't see how the wall that keeps reality and fiction from blurring together falling can in any way NOT be dangerous. Best case scenario? The world doens't actually end, and we have several centuries worth of terrible nightmares running around. Worse case scenario? The wall falling has some kind of knock on effect, like removing the sticks in a game of kerplunk, or unravelling the tapestry of the world so that it all falls apart.

We may not understand what the rules governing reality are as well as we understand the ones that govern fiction, but we know they must EXIST and they must exist for A REASON. Get rid of those rules and we're in trouble...

Hmm, interesting thoughts.

One idea is, there are some rules that apply to BOTH reality and fiction. The human mind is a storytelling and story-weaving machine. Our view of the world is influenced by stories -- whether about real events, myths and fables, or other forms of fiction.

Here's another way to think about it. What is the Fourth Wall, exactly? How does it relate to history, including Mr. A's personal backstory, his father's backstory, the creation of Reality As We Know It, and so on? Is this about the Wall between the past and the present, or between fiction and reality?

One step to take is to study these tropes and think about the implications, including for the metaverse model:

Sliding Scale of Fourth Wall Hardness
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... llHardness

Fourth Wall Observer
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... llObserver
"As you can probably guess, this trope is about that one guy in the group who knows his life takes place behind a tv screen, knows that he's being written by someone, or can see the little effects that happen all around him. Usually, his friends dismiss him as being completely off his rocker, though he probably is. If it's a villain, expect him to be Dangerously Genre Savvy."

No Fourth Wall
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoFourthWall
"A series with No Fourth Wall doesn't just break the fourth wall, it vaporizes it. There might as well not be one. Characters will make references to "the last episode" or "next issue". They'll criticize the writing, production, management or even the audience. In extreme cases, they'll refuse to go on acting. Expect there to be large amounts of Medium Awareness, such as characters in a comic pointing out the use of panels. No Fourth Wall often leads to characters being extremely Genre Savvy, or frequent lampshading of Genre Blindness."

Thoughts?

[Sicon112]

I believe, Screen, that you are operating under a number of misconceptions due to your current status as a newcomer.

First of all, you suggest refctionalizing Mr. A. That... makes very little sense to me. I have no clue what you were thinking, to be honest. It's like you took a sentence and replaced the work retconning (something we cannot do in this case, as players) with the word refictionalizing (something we can do, but something that is also very different) Refics send FICTIONAL characters from this side of the fourth wall to the other. Mr. A, within the level of meta that is the game, is NOT fictional. He is also not really 'real' either, but something n between. He also does not reside on either side of the wall, but in it. This means refics are totally meaningless in this case.

I know it is hard to keep the numerous layers of meta involved straight, but you really need to be careful not to get them mixed up. Otherwise you start looking at A as a fictional character from a POV outside of this game, and then propose to affect him with a technique that resides within this game and is subordinate to the assumptions that are a part of it. The Suspension of Disbelief.

Furthermore, the delusion thing is slightly more doubtful due to the fact that his predictions of doom are at least logically consistent with what we know. They COULD be possible, which is really all that he has ever been saying. It also may not be the best idea to get Lawson into this, since she remains firmly in the muggle camp and really doesn't know of or understand what is going on, and so could probably not provide a reliable report, even should she be willing.

To Spirit, yes, the idea that Mr. A may be trying to save himself has been brought up, but really we can't act to prove or disprove it in any way other than asking him, which we did do. He denied it, and as stated above, all he has been saying is that the end of the world has a good chance. If the seismetagraph stuff wasn't made up, then that chance increased drastically. Finally, as Scarab said, even if this puts HIM in danger, it puts all of humanity in even greater danger.

As for Mr. A's backstory, I don't think you need to worry too much about that. For meta reasons I think that shouldn't be too important in this ARG. The father Mr. A speaks of is Prime, who is the father of all instantiations. The instantiations seem to be spun off fully formed from A-Prime and that's that. As for the beginning of reality, the instantiations we have asked have no memories of it. If we can contact Prime, it would become a viable question. Until then...

Finally, as to history. History, according to the meta-verse model changes made based on the Witch's experiments, is a part of our universe, separated from us only by a time coordinate. This is history as most people consider it. Alternate histories, things that did not happen, but are also not really fiction, exist in the infinite chain of AU's, which are separated from us by a fourth "spatial" dimension, which wormholes can pass through. The fourth wall is more like a FIFTH spacial dimension, separating the infinite AUs of our creator universe with the fictional worlds and their AUs.

That is what we are working with now, in a short overview.

[screenstorming]

TL;DR/Wall-of-Text note: A TV Tropes article is a "Wall of Text" -- what sane person would spend hours reading hundreds or thousands of them? Likewise, the many blog entries from the many fictional characters around here are Walls-of-Text. If you made it this far, think of this as an Epistolary Novel. At least check out that trope and consider the context.

Thanks Scion, that helps a lot. Yeah, I'm still trying to wrap my head around all this!

I realize that refictionalization of Mr. A makes no sense. I was, as you said, "looking at A as a fictional character from a POV outside of this game, and then [proposing] to affect him with a technique that resides within this game and is subordinate to the assumptions that are a part of it. "

Part of my challenge is understanding the structure the game itself, the layers of meta, what can and cannot be changed in-game and how, along with how to figure that out. There seems to be some vagueness and flexibility there, of course constrained by Word of God. But it seems like poking around the edges of possibility has sometimes proven useful. (As long as it isn't totally out of line with the metaphysics of the world in question.)

I'm trying to understand, perhaps beyond the scope of necessity, the creator universe, prime, and so on. This would be irrelevant for most in-game purposes, but the moral dilemmas and underlying realities and characters here seem pretty significant. Metaguards have to struggle with who and what to believe. They have to choose a framework for thinking about their decisions, with some level of meta, and the ideal level of meta seems to vary between metaguards. They have to figure out how to discuss and decide the issues, or risk making a move on their own.

Overall, this all seems more complicated than a simple puzzle/refic ARG, but it's hard to tell what Word of God has in mind, beyond intending a morally challenging game. The odds at times seem overwhelming, and there could be more than one path to a solution. If the apparently superhuman contributor GuestUser17 can provide enough help, as Scarab referenced, there's less pressure to come up with paradigm shift in in-world scientific/metaphysical knowledge or to persuade Mr. A, the instantiations, or even the Cabal to change their minds. And yet, even the characters seem to be more complex beings than in most ARGs, and out of pure speculation I could imagine different GMs running different sides of the Mr. A vs. Cabal conflict. How wild would that be?

What I'm thinking is, this is a trope-based game played by tropers, so hypothetically it could be reasonable to push boundaries that would not be pushed in other ARGs. The level of wrath from Mr. A, along with the in-game pressures to question him, really give rise to questions that few games make part of their in-game dynamics.

I'm still trying to figure it all out, but this all reminds me of a Simpsons episode: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treehouse_of_Horror_VII (Note that this part begins with a Gambit Pileup.)

The Genesis Tub: "Lisa performs a science experiment to see if cola will dissolve a tooth and Bart shocks Lisa as part of his project to prove that nerds conduct electricity. The tooth was also shocked and it undergoes an unusual reaction and creates a race of miniature beings. Lisa discovers this the next day and marvels at how the people in her universe evolve at a rapid rate, going through the various ages humans have gone through into modern times and eventually, a society more advanced than current humanity. Bart destroys some of the ecosystem in Lisa's tub universe and the people respond, sending a squadron of space ships to attack Bart. Bart vows revenge on the small universe and Lisa wonders what to do. Suddenly, she is shrunk and beamed down into the tub where the citizens explain that they regard her as God and they want her to do something about Bart. She can help them if they can unshrink her, but they had not figured out the technology to do that. However, Bart grabs the tub and submits it in the science fair and Lisa is forced to watch from within as Bart wins first prize."

What do you all think? What do you wonder about? There are but a few weeks left, yet that adds up to a lot of hours, and potentially sleepless nights if reality is really at stake. So, what are the various parties looking to achieve, even in-game?

Meanwhile, consider this clip: What If Money Was No Object (Narrated by: Alan Watts) [3 minutes]

[Dryunya]

About the meta-boundaries... They do exist: everything Tom & Dana say is canon. They are not characters. I've learned it the hard way.
And I'm now writing a Wall Of Text into your character sheet. <_<

[screenstorming]

About the meta-boundaries... They do exist: everything Tom & Dana say is canon. They are not characters. I've learned it the hard way.
And I'm now writing a Wall Of Text into your character sheet. <_<

Yeah, I understand there are meta-boundaries, that everything Tom & Dana say is canon, and that they are not characters.

What did you do to learn that the hard way? And... what is the hard way?

[Dryunya]

Hard way? Nothing. Why do you ask?

[H22]

Now you're using your wit and charm to make me forget I asked anything.