The "sending them back" dilemma

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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby IslaKariese on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:31 pm

Adell wrote:We have no way of knowing yet unfortunately...even if Mr.A said everything we just be reset, he could very well be lying to make sure we don't falter in sending them back.

We're faltering anyway. Look at us! It doesn't matter that they're fictional characters - it doesn't even matter that this is all a game that we can quit playing at any time. And yet we created an entire thread solely for the question 'What will happen to them if we send them back?' Mr. A can't do anything about it!
The voices in my head tell me that we saved the world. However, they also told me that George Clooney's face is on the dollar bill, so... meh. The voices are more fun, anyway.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby NeverSlender on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:33 pm

IslaKariese wrote:
Adell wrote:We have no way of knowing yet unfortunately...even if Mr.A said everything we just be reset, he could very well be lying to make sure we don't falter in sending them back.

We're faltering anyway. Look at us! It doesn't matter that they're fictional characters - it doesn't even matter that this is all a game that we can quit playing at any time. And yet we created an entire thread solely for the question 'What will happen to them if we send them back?' Mr. A can't do anything about it!


It's Mr. As fault for giving us nearly no information.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Guyshane on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:34 pm

Adell wrote:
NeverSlender wrote:
IslaKariese wrote:But before now, they at least didn't know that it kept repeating. Like if you're living in a Groundhog Day Loop, but of course no one else knew that the day was going on over and over again. Will they go back to that, or will they be affected by their knowledge of what's beyond the Wall?


What's better, being aware or unaware of an infinite cycle of them dying?


They were just "characters" in their story. They weren't AWARE of anything. They were written to react certain ways during the story to support the plot. What's going on with the hole in the 4th wall has no bearing on that. Now, if they go BACK aware, then the story is no longer a story exactly...

Okay heres a crazy idea: what if this is all a stable time loop? what if the characters future knowledge of what is beyond the fourth wall is what brings their past selves to here the creating the cracks in the wall? if thats the case sending them back might be just as bad as keeping them here
I say we nuke it from orbit...its the only way to be sure.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Adell on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:35 pm

Guyshane wrote:Okay heres a crazy idea: what if this is all a stable time loop? what if the characters future knowledge of what is beyond the fourth wall is what brings their past selves to here the creating the cracks in the wall? if thats the case sending them back might be just as bad as keeping them here


Welp, that's it for me lol! My brain is starting to hurt way to much, I'm taking a break from this thread.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby narrativedilettante on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:36 pm

I suspect that the fictives' continued presence in our reality may slowly erode the universe, so that eventually everything unravels and the real world perishes, along with all fictional worlds. In this case, sending characters back to face their deaths is necessary. Either they die in the story, or they die here along with everyone else.

Of course, we need more information. I suspect Mr. A will tell us more as the time gets closer, and we'll be able to piece together what sort of threat the fictives actually pose. (Mr. A may not be forthcoming, but the Hivemind should be able to figure things out.) If they are harmless, we might be able to let them stay here against Mr. A's wishes. But I doubt very much that they are harmless.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby NeverSlender on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:37 pm

Guyshane wrote:Okay heres a crazy idea: what if this is all a stable time loop? what if the characters future knowledge of what is beyond the fourth wall is what brings their past selves to here the creating the cracks in the wall? if thats the case sending them back might be just as bad as keeping them here.


O_o
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby IslaKariese on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:41 pm

Can't we all just live in a dual world? Where fictites and the real world can live together? Like Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
The voices in my head tell me that we saved the world. However, they also told me that George Clooney's face is on the dollar bill, so... meh. The voices are more fun, anyway.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Sicon112 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:45 pm

First, I love how it's as though I never posted... Everyone completely ignored me even when I proposed answers to some of the questions.

Second, as to the idea that R&J are stuck in some kind of time loop, why should they be? Again looking at things from the metaverse model, their story is located one layer deep, directly on the other side of the fourth wall from us. That story has it's own, self-contained universe, and that universe has it's own timeline that is completely disconnected from our own. When we watch the play or read the script, we are merely looking across the fourth wall at a single point in that universes history. From here, we can, at our leisure, look at any moment in time. We may go from the beginning straight to the end, or start from the end and read backwards, though why we would do that, I do not know. That universe exists entirely on it's own; the events that happened have both happened and not happened, and will only happen once even though we may replay them a million times.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Guyshane on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:47 pm

Discussion of other timelines makes my brain hurt
I say we nuke it from orbit...its the only way to be sure.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Sicon112 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:47 pm

Guyshane wrote:Discussion of other timelines makes my brain hurt


...well I enjoy it... :?
Normal people are the easiest to manipulate. Too smart and they have an annoying tendency to catch wind of your plans, too dumb and, in the words of a certain pirate, "You can never tell when they are about to do something incredibly...stupid."
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby NeverSlender on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:48 pm

Sicon112 wrote:First, I love how it's as though I never posted... Everyone completely ignored me even when I proposed answers to some of your questions.


Get use to it mate it happens to me all the time.

And we all had different answers.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Victin on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:52 pm

Guyshane wrote:Discussion of other timelines makes my brain hurt

I'm used to Homestuck, so I guess I can take multiple timelines.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby The Wild West Pyro on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:57 pm

Poirot's just realized he's fictional.

Holmes has realized that too.

Soon the characters will realize they're fictional. What will we do?
FIRE!
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby NeverSlender on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:59 pm

The Wild West Pyro wrote:Poirot's just realized he's fictional.

Holmes has realized that too.

Soon the characters will realize they're fictional. What will we do?


Quixote has pretty much realised as well. At least, he knows he's in a book. Anyway what can we do?
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Goldude on Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:18 pm

NeverSlender wrote:I don't trust him. At all. It's hard to trust someone when you never have any idea which part of them your speaking to or what their motives are.

I roleplay a character as paranoid as you are.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby NeverSlender on Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:56 am

Goldude wrote:
NeverSlender wrote:I don't trust him. At all. It's hard to trust someone when you never have any idea which part of them your speaking to or what their motives are.

I roleplay a character as paranoid as you are.


That's not paranoia, that's common sense.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Dryunya on Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:41 am

Ok, I started this thread yesterday, and now it's 5 pages long. Some trolling on my part, rite? ;)
Now, I'll try to address some of the points raised, which means...

WALL OF TEXT WARNING
(I mean, seriously, now that I'm done typing it, even I am shocked. :shock: )

Now, I'm just thinking aloud. We need to summon our meta-thinking once again (oh boy oh boy).
  1. There has been a point that the characters are not real.
    They are not.
    They are characters of an ARG. The point of the ARG is to act as if it's not. It's a little harder given the nature of this particular one.
    If we descend one level to where we are acting as if the game events are real, they are real. There is a physical object that acts as if it was real, consists of the same cells as we are (that's an assumption, but, I believe, a safe one) and makes its own decisions. We should treat them as real and sentient. Which is why, if we think inside the ARG, there is supposed to be a moral dilemma (which this thread is about). If we don't... Why are we even playing then? :)
  2. Leaving the characters here will have dire consequences for both worlds.
    It will probably not. Elaboration:
    Let's assume it will. Now let's assume we refuse to send the characters back. Now the plot, minding that we are still bound by the RL limitations (read: Status Quo Is God), may unfold in two directions:
    1. Mr. A says something along those lines. There's nothing he can do to actually cause The End Of The World As We Know It - I doubt EC crew was able to construct a Doomsday Device in their backyard. :gurt:
    2. Mr. A shrugs and does something to get them back anyway - sends a henchman, recruits some other guys, or he won't need us for that anyway.
    That means that if the world IS in danger, our opinion won't matter. Which is why we may drop that discussion line.
  3. Leaving the characters here will have dire consequences for fiction.
    This one is pretty much disproven by the common sense. There's no way Romeo is going to disappear from the books if he dies here. Which is the ground for my Blueprint theory.

(Oh btw,
WackyMeetsPractical wrote:Why not show them this? http://www.collegehumor.com/video/39833 ... iet-in-lol

this is priceless :lol: )

Now, considering that the world is safe, there may be several scenarios for sending the characters back. First, I assume that the wall will be fixed, because I think anyone would agree that leaving it as it is will eventually summon an Eldritch Abomination or an After The End scenario.
  1. Sending everyone.
    Self-explanatory. That's pretty much what is assumed by the Status Quo.
  2. Sending no one.
    This is bound to have some problems. First, leaving dangerous characters is dangerous, and some of them attract too much attention. No attention-attracting characters can stay, this contradicts the Status Quo. Which means the Wicked Witch is out of the question.
  3. Sending those who do not contradict the Status Quo
    This is Taking A Third option. Basically, those who prove they can live in this world safely, can stay. There may be a lot of Fridge Logic involved (like the documents, origin, no relatives, and so on), but let's Hand Wave that. The characters just disappear into the shadows, and live the way they want.
  4. Sending the whole ARG
    This is proposed by Pixelmage, which is the expanded version of my second post. Basically, we say "Ok, we know this all is fictional, that means let's make it canon that everyone who wanted to stay in this world, stayed." This approach also means that we are fictionalizing ourselves, which has a nice ring to the EC canon. BUT that contradicts the will of Mr. A, which may mean that we push on Mr. A, as the canon originator. Basically, making the writer finish the story with a Happy End. That's almost a Rage Against The Author on our part, which would be an epic conclusion. I'm all for it. :gurt:
    Also, Sicon has mentioned that this would stabilize our fourth wall. I'd like to add that it won't stabilize their wall (the one we are trying to fix now). That scenario basically means proclaiming that wall "not ours", and leaving it as it is. Which means, if we want to ARG-world to have a Happy End, we'll still need to fix the wall.
    Oh, wait. He also said that we can retcon the wall into not-falling. That works too. :D

And, just because it has to go somewhere, let's speculate on what happens to the characters who are sent back.
  1. The characters just go back to their story to the point they came from
    That would mean that their fiction would not exist while they stay in our world, which is not true (the grounds for my Blueprint theory). If we Hand Wave that, that would mean the character loses his memories of the ARG, and goes on with his story, possibly dying in the process. As for the Groundhog Day Loop theory (which is pretty much correct - their fiction exists outside of our time), it has no moral implications, as the characters themselves only percieve their story once. Sending the characters to a story ending in their death, however, does have them.
  2. Blueprint theory: the characters are originating from the blueprint behind the wall, and those spawned fall through the cracks.
    1. Assuming they end up in the same verse as the one they came from, nothing changes in their verse, but the spawned character disappears in ours. Which means the "real" character just ceases to exist, and he might just as well die. This is the worst possible scenario, I believe.
    2. Assuming they end up in a new verse (see my second post), they create make a new blueprint for a new "adaptation" of their story, where they have the knowledge of the ARG. Considering that there are no stories for them beyond this point, we may speculate on what it will be. Which means their future is unknown, which is kind of like giving them free will. I like that outcome, but it is worse than Pixelmage's "Whole-ARG" scenario, because it is based on a speculation, while Pixelmage's emerges from our metaverse model, which is more scientific. :geek:
      UPD: I've just realized that this scenario may be undermined by the characters' being unable to read their own books, as that may be the universe's mechanic to prevent the positive feedback loop. That's a possibility.

Phew, I think I'm done.
(Scientific approach rules. :geek: )
Last edited by Dryunya on Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby NeverSlender on Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:55 am

0_o
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Scarab on Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:31 am

NeverSlender wrote:0_o


Long story short, Slender, we're pretty much in a situation where there are lots of possibilities right now. Lots of ways the story could pan out. At this point we don't know enough to say that any one of our theories or ideas are correct but it's only right of us to consider all the possibilities.

I agree that so far we have seen only circumstantial effects caused by the characters in our world - but that these effects alone are dangerous. Holmes and Poirot's presence alone may have led to the deaths of several people, Sweeny Todd is running around in Boston, and Long John Silver could start terrorising Japan any day now.

So far we haven't seen any seriously damaging consequences - but it's quite possible we will at some point n the future. The more the wall falls, the more characters break through, and the bigger the threat becomes.

What this is all about in the end is us making overarching moral choices about what we're doing and why, and whether or not it's really the right thing to do. I'm really not sure myself, personally, what the right thing to do is, but I plan on carrying on and hopefully, as more information becomes available, we'll be able to come up with ideas.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Dryunya on Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:46 am

I think fictionalizing the ARG is both sensible and is the best outcome. It will also localize the consequences in a fictional verse. Even if we neglect reacting to those consequences (which we probably won't do) and, basically, leave the ARG-universe a multiversal mess - well, it's bad, but we have to accept the Fridge Horror that we have doomed countless universes by writing fiction (CoughBokuranoCough). One more multiverse won't really make a difference in an infinity.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Sicon112 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:31 am

Dryunya wrote:I think fictionalizing the ARG is both sensible and is the best outcome. It will also localize the consequences in a fictional verse. Even if we neglect reacting to those consequences (which we probably won't do) and, basically, leave the ARG-universe a multiversal mess - well, it's bad, but we have to accept the Fridge Horror that we have doomed countless universes by writing fiction (CoughBokuranoCough). One more multiverse won't really make a difference in an infinity.


Dryu... Why the hell don't I talk to you more often!? Seriously, you are the first guy I've met who doesn't give me weird looks when I start talking about things that defy space-time as we perceive it, and actually you make everything I say BETTER and make it make so much more sense!

The whole ARG secnario is what we should be aiming for, without a doubt. However, this will mean a collision with the wishes of Mr. A at some point, probably. Therefore, I guess it's time to see if a Ragtag Bunch Of Misfits can outwith an infinite collective, don't you? As soon as we get the ARG across the wall, we post online and in character about a Deus Ex Machina that saves the wall. (Though hopefully a well implemented one...) That should clear up every issue we have with this.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Dryunya on Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:05 am

Sicon112 wrote:Dryu... Why the hell don't I talk to you more often!? Seriously, you are the first guy I've met who doesn't give me weird looks when I start talking about things that defy space-time as we perceive it, and actually you make everything I say BETTER and make it make so much more sense!

:oops:
Sicon112 wrote:Therefore, I guess it's time to see if a Ragtag Bunch Of Misfits can outwith an infinite collective, don't you? As soon as we get the ARG across the wall, we post online and in character about a Deus Ex Machina that saves the wall. (Though hopefully a well implemented one...) That should clear up every issue we have with this.

I think it's not the right time yet. By that logic, we may go ahead and wrap the ARG up right now, but that's not what we want, right? So, let's play the way we did, and have our plan in mind. :twisted:

Hi there, Mr. A! I do like you, but I like our plan better! :D
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Pixelmage on Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:57 am

Dryunya wrote:I think it's not the right time yet. By that logic, we may go ahead and wrap the ARG up right now, but that's not what we want, right? So, let's play the way we did, and have our plan in mind. :twisted:

Hi there, Mr. A! I do like you, but I like our plan better! :D


Dryu. Now that I'm actually rational and can understand what I'm reading I must say this: You're a genius!

As I understand it, for now we follow as normal. And only when the time to send them back emerges we act upon this plan. Should new information arise that affects how this plan could work, we come back to revise it and see if it is still a viable option. Oh, I am already looking forward to this moment...
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Scarab on Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:59 am

Pixelmage wrote:Dryunya wrote:
I think it's not the right time yet. By that logic, we may go ahead and wrap the ARG up right now, but that's not what we want, right? So, let's play the way we did, and have our plan in mind.

Hi there, Mr. A! I do like you, but I like our plan better!

Dryu. Now that I'm actually rational and can understand what I'm reading I must say this: You're a genius!

As I understand it, for now we follow as normal. And only when the time to send them back emerges we act upon this plan. Should new information arise that affects how this plan could work, we come back to revise it and see if it is still a viable option. Oh, I am already looking forward to this moment...


In total agreement here. It's tough to accept our responsibility for all that has come before but we're here now and as you say, hey what's one more multiverse? Especially if it's created with the intention of SAVING some from more pain in the end. I don't know about you guys but I'm tired of running on the vague explanations and skidding-around-an-actual-response behaviour of these guy. Mister A. may have brought us together, technically, but it was Joe who got us to act, and heck, we were tropers before they even came along, and it's about time we got a chance to show Mister A. what we can do.
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Re: The "sending them back" dilemma

Postby Victin on Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:07 pm

wait, I got here from the Timeline, so... What exactly you plan by "fictionalizing" the ARG? And how do you plan to do that?
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