Metaverse model

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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:06 pm

Serefin wrote:I'm sorry that this completely destroys everything you've mentioned, but I felt the need to put my thoughts forward.

I've always imagined the multiverse as a ridiculously huge section of space, with each fandom/franchise/fictite world being a "galaxy" in the section.


But the issue is that we need to create a model that is consistent with the Echo Chamber series. It doesn't matter how you visualize it, since it really doesn't have a SHAPE at all; it's all on different levels of reality. Still the fourth wall layering scheme of 'levels' that we have here, such that we are on top, fiction directly created by us is below that, things that are fiction in those fictional worlds (With the exception of other first level fictions) are a level below, etc. The interconnected fictions on one level have fourth wall sections separating them, and so on. If you are just imaging it as rectangles like in Dryu's graphs, or complex shapes like galaxies, nothing changes.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Dryunya on Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:58 pm

I've promised to update the model, and so I did.

What is different in this version:
  1. I've added the Canon Welding, just because I forgot it in the last version.
  2. I've moved the void behind the 4th wall. That doesn't really change much, but it allows to draw the 4th wall in a consistent manner. Mr. A is still between the worlds, so the semantics are untouched. Considering that this part is merely speculated upon, the last version may be just as correct as this one.
  3. I've added the actual real world. Note that it doesn't have the void behind the 4th wall. It's for meta reasons - we haven't yet encountered an actual entity controlling the fiction. :)

That model means that it's the fictional 4th wall that is cracking. Basically, what I've been saying so often. :gurt:
P. S. It's a little too late to correct that, but "meta-you" should be read as "metaguard-you". Meta-you probably means the real you. We Keep Using That Word... :D
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Metaverse model version 3
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:01 pm

Dryunya wrote:I've promised to update the model, and so I did.

What is different in this version:
  1. I've added the Canon Welding, just because I forgot it in the last version.
  2. I've moved the void behind the 4th wall. That doesn't really change much, but it allows to draw the 4th wall in a consistent manner. Mr. A is still between the worlds, so the semantics are untouched. Considering that this part is merely speculated upon, the last version may be just as correct as this one.
  3. I've added the actual real world. Note that it doesn't have the void behind the 4th wall. It's for meta reasons - we haven't yet encountered an actual entity controlling the fiction. :)

That model means that it's the fictional 4th wall that is cracking. Basically, what I've been saying so often. :gurt:
P. S. It's a little too late to correct that, but "meta-you" should be read as "metaguard-you". Meta-you probably means the real you. We Keep Using That Word... :D



Once again, you make the crazy stuff I come up with seem totally logical. How the hell do you keep DOING that?
Normal people are the easiest to manipulate. Too smart and they have an annoying tendency to catch wind of your plans, too dumb and, in the words of a certain pirate, "You can never tell when they are about to do something incredibly...stupid."
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby NeverSlender on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:01 pm

But that model directly contadicts Mr. A saying "the fourth wall is breaking". If it was the fictional fourth wall there would be no problem, as it would just mean that it's a story someone thought up. Which would be ridiculous. :gurt:
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:04 pm

NeverSlender wrote:But that model directly contadicts Mr. A saying "the fourth wall is breaking". If it was the fictional fourth wall there would be no problem, as it would just mean that it's a story someone thought up. Which would be ridiculous. :gurt:


He is looking at this from outside the ARG POV here. Look again.
Normal people are the easiest to manipulate. Too smart and they have an annoying tendency to catch wind of your plans, too dumb and, in the words of a certain pirate, "You can never tell when they are about to do something incredibly...stupid."
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Dryunya on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:07 pm

NeverSlender wrote:But that model directly contadicts Mr. A saying "the fourth wall is breaking". If it was the fictional fourth wall there would be no problem, as it would just mean that it's a story someone thought up.

I don't mean to shake your Suspension Of Disbelief, but it is a story someone thought up. :D
If you want to understand the universal logic, you need to look at the universe from the outside. You know, for science. :twisted:
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Scarab on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:09 pm

Dryunya wrote:
NeverSlender wrote:But that model directly contadicts Mr. A saying "the fourth wall is breaking". If it was the fictional fourth wall there would be no problem, as it would just mean that it's a story someone thought up.

I don't mean to shake your Suspension Of Disbelief, but it is a story someone thought up. :D
If you want to understand the universal logic, you need to look at the universe from the outside. You know, for science. :twisted:


Maybe that's what Mister A abnd the guys over there in the void are... maybe they're beyond fiction AND reality so they find it easy to look at us and manipulate and understand what's going on whereas we are forced to try and comprehend things from a purely human standpoint.
They sometimes say, "the place where I am right now was circled on a map for me"... Unfortunately, I kind of suck at orienteering.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:12 pm

Scarab wrote:Maybe that's what Mister A abnd the guys over there in the void are... maybe they're beyond fiction AND reality so they find it easy to look at us and manipulate and understand what's going on whereas we are forced to try and comprehend things from a purely human standpoint.


The fun thing about being a human is that with the right amount of mental gymnastics, you can surpass all those silly comprehension barriers like "only seeing time moving in one direction" or "only looking at one level of reality, and only three dimension of it at that".
Normal people are the easiest to manipulate. Too smart and they have an annoying tendency to catch wind of your plans, too dumb and, in the words of a certain pirate, "You can never tell when they are about to do something incredibly...stupid."
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Dryunya on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:15 pm

Scarab wrote:aybe that's what Mister A abnd the guys over there in the void are... maybe they're beyond fiction AND reality so they find it easy to look at us and manipulate and understand what's going on whereas we are forced to try and comprehend things from a purely human standpoint.

That doesn't really answer "what they are", that answers "what they do". We still have no idea what they are. ("NICE TRY...") And if they were beyond reality, they would be gods, by their very definition. :shock:
Sicon112 wrote:The fun thing about being a human is that with the right amount of mental gymnastics, you can surpass all those silly comprehension barriers like "only seeing time moving in one direction" or "only looking at one level of reality, and only three dimension of it at that".

I still fail at looking in four dimensions. :evil:
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby NeverSlender on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:17 pm

Looking at it from the ARG perspective doesn't help. In front of me is a fourth wall, which is breaking. How is that different?
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:17 pm

Dryunya wrote:
Sicon112 wrote:The fun thing about being a human is that with the right amount of mental gymnastics, you can surpass all those silly comprehension barriers like "only seeing time moving in one direction" or "only looking at one level of reality, and only three dimension of it at that".

I still fail at looking in four dimensions. :evil:


You think that's hard? Try figuring out what would happen if you slashed someone in half with a sword while going backwards in time.

Enjoy your headache.

EDIT: Assume causality traveling backwards, AKA Stable Time Loops.
Last edited by Sicon112 on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Pixelmage on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:20 pm

Sicon112 wrote:The fun thing about being a human is that with the right amount of mental gymnastics, you can surpass all those silly comprehension barriers like "only seeing time moving in one direction" or "only looking at one level of reality, and only three dimension of it at that".


And don't forget the color that can't be drawn!
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Victin on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:20 pm

Sicon112 wrote:
Dryunya wrote:
Sicon112 wrote:The fun thing about being a human is that with the right amount of mental gymnastics, you can surpass all those silly comprehension barriers like "only seeing time moving in one direction" or "only looking at one level of reality, and only three dimension of it at that".

I still fail at looking in four dimensions. :evil:


You think that's hard? Try figuring out what would happen if you slashed someone in half with a sword while going backwards in time.

Enjoy your headache.

What exactly do you mean by backwards in time?
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:24 pm

Victin wrote:What exactly do you mean by backwards in time?


I mean while in the act of moving through time in reverse. Think of rewinding a movie, except you are the characters onscreen and you are aware of the rewind and can act freely, doing things that YOU DIDN'T do the first time through. Try and then work this in with Stable Time Looping, thus creating cloning via time warp. THEN try an think what would happen if you actually physically affected things WHILE GOING BACK. Then your mind explodes.
Normal people are the easiest to manipulate. Too smart and they have an annoying tendency to catch wind of your plans, too dumb and, in the words of a certain pirate, "You can never tell when they are about to do something incredibly...stupid."
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Dryunya on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:27 pm

NeverSlender wrote:Looking at it from the ARG perspective doesn't help. In front of me is a fourth wall, which is breaking. How is that different?

Nothing, actually. That's the way we were playing all along. Looking at the wall from the IRL perspective, though, is different. It's a viewpoint that emerged from that "throw a tantrum" plan - that model shows that the basis for it is always there, all we need to do to proceed with the plan is to change our viewpoint. (And no, I'm not saying that the plan is any good - that's a talk for a different thread).
Sicon112 wrote:Think of rewinding a movie, except you are the characters onscreen and you are aware of the rewind and can act freely, doing things that YOU DIDN'T do the first time through. Try and then work this in with Stable Time Looping, thus creating cloning via time warp. THEN try an think what would happen if you actually physically affected things WHILE GOING BACK. Then your mind explodes.

:geek:
:|
:?
:(
Well, at least I completed Braid.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby IslaKariese on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:30 pm

Dryunya wrote: :geek:
:|
:?
:(
Well, at least I completed Braid.

Yeah, I imagine that helps. Me, I've only watched playthroughs of Braid multiple times, so that's just as good.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:31 pm

Dryunya wrote:
Sicon112 wrote:Think of rewinding a movie, except you are the characters onscreen and you are aware of the rewind and can act freely, doing things that YOU DIDN'T do the first time through. Try and then work this in with Stable Time Looping, thus creating cloning via time warp. THEN try an think what would happen if you actually physically affected things WHILE GOING BACK. Then your mind explodes.

:geek:
:|
:?
:(
Well, at least I completed Braid.


Just so you know, that thought experiment came to me in relation to the powerset of an RPG character I was helping my brother make for a forum RP he was getting into. Part of the reason he is invincible on most of those is that I have taught him so many levels of Mind Screw that no one else can understand. Since they have no idea what he is really doing, he can get away with pretty much open BS and no one complains. Plus one win for my gambits.
Normal people are the easiest to manipulate. Too smart and they have an annoying tendency to catch wind of your plans, too dumb and, in the words of a certain pirate, "You can never tell when they are about to do something incredibly...stupid."
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Pixelmage on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:41 pm

IslaKariese wrote:
Dryunya wrote: :geek:
:|
:?
:(
Well, at least I completed Braid.

Yeah, I imagine that helps. Me, I've only watched playthroughs of Braid multiple times, so that's just as good.


What is Braid? I know what it is.

You'd split into alternate universes for the paths of interference. Since the Time Loop is stable you either get locked in a Groundhog Day without actually doing different things, as each time you go back in time you'll always slice the same guy. Or you'd split into perspective points with one universe for each outcome from the choices you make while going back.

In the slice backwards, I'd settle into a retroactivelly slicing the guy, therefore removing the backwards travel, thus sipinning off into a reallity where you're aware of the backward slash without having even done it. :ugeek:

In a sense. What PoV should I focus on? The slicer-you, or the before-travel you?
By the way, I don't really have a headache yet. :D
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:44 pm

Pixelmage wrote:
IslaKariese wrote:
Dryunya wrote: :geek:
:|
:?
:(
Well, at least I completed Braid.

Yeah, I imagine that helps. Me, I've only watched playthroughs of Braid multiple times, so that's just as good.


What is Braid? I know what it is.

You'd split into alternate universes for the paths of interference. Since the Time Loop is stable you either get locked in a Groundhog Day without actually doing different things, as each time you go back in time you'll always slice the same guy. Or you'd split into perspective points with one universe for each outcome from the choices you make while going back.

In the slice backwards, I'd settle into a retroactivelly slicing the guy, therefore removing the backwards travel, thus sipinning off into a reallity where you're aware of the backward slash without having even done it. :ugeek:

In a sense. What PoV should I focus on? The slicer-you, or the before-travel you?
By the way, I don't really have a headache yet. :D


NOW you are getting it. But I already disqualified all of those for various reasons. I would explain, but I'm running out the door now. My brother is screaming LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOY JEEEEEEEEEEEEEENKIIIIIINS for no reason, so that's my cue.
Normal people are the easiest to manipulate. Too smart and they have an annoying tendency to catch wind of your plans, too dumb and, in the words of a certain pirate, "You can never tell when they are about to do something incredibly...stupid."
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Sicon112 on Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:27 pm

:shock: I just... I just read Mr. A's tweets.

Holy sh*t. I think we got it right. I think the metaverse model is RIGHT! (Well, as right as a scientific theory ever gets) Dryu! This calls for celebration!!! Green Stuff(TM) All round!
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Serefin on Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:33 pm

Sweet! I'll go get the TNT and the Flint&Steel's for the pyros, like me.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Inukai44 on Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:40 pm

Excellent! :)
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Dryunya on Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:43 am

Ok. Now I'll try to make sense of the Witch's interpretation of the model. I'm bad at spatial four-dimensional thinking (space-time thinking is still OK), so I'll need your opinion.

Wicked Witch wrote:The problem with this is that wormholes only work within the four dimensions of space and time. Wormholes will either bridged distances in 3 dimensions or connect alternate universes with your universe.
You can break through the connecting walls of each alternate universe, but you cannot connect to a universe that is completely separate from your own. For those of you who are familiar with four dimensional geometic shapes: instead of connecting to another cube in a tesseract, I need to connect to a completely different tesseract and cross what could be considered a fifth dimension – this White Void, or Fourth Wall, or what have you. Wormholes can’t do that, so I’m still stuck here.

Ok. By the second sentence, she lost me.
So our universe is represented with 3 spatial coordinates and 1 temporal coordinate. Makes sense.

Now adding one more dimension would represent our entire universe and its history as a 5-dimensional plane. Travelling along the 5th axis would mean travelling between the parallel planes representing other universes (oh hey, that is why they are called "parallel worlds" :D ).
The way I see it, we may divide the 5-dimensional space in two by an impassable (via wormholes, or whatever) 5-dimensional plane which we call The White Void. The halves of the metaverse are still infinite, so it's ok. :) Travelling along the 5th axis in the fictional half would mean travelling between different stories.

...and now that I have to include the intersections of the fictional universes, canon weldings and whatnot, and especially nested universes, I'm officially baffled. Considering that every 4-dimensional space in the fictional half should still have its sub-universe... Ok, I'm stuck in my own words. Basically, I'm saying that our model implies infinite-dimensional space, no matter how hardcore it may sound. :shock:

Now is your turn to say it in a way that actually makes sense. :gurt:

UPD: I'm not sure what she meant by "separate tesseracts". If she meant separated in the 5-dimentional space - most of them are. If she still meant 4-dimensional one, then the tesseracts would have to be finite, which is hardly correct.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Victin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:50 am

Pixelmage wrote:
IslaKariese wrote:
Dryunya wrote: :geek:
:|
:?
:(
Well, at least I completed Braid.

Yeah, I imagine that helps. Me, I've only watched playthroughs of Braid multiple times, so that's just as good.


What is Braid? I know what it is.

You'd split into alternate universes for the paths of interference. Since the Time Loop is stable you either get locked in a Groundhog Day without actually doing different things, as each time you go back in time you'll always slice the same guy. Or you'd split into perspective points with one universe for each outcome from the choices you make while going back.

In the slice backwards, I'd settle into a retroactivelly slicing the guy, therefore removing the backwards travel, thus sipinning off into a reallity where you're aware of the backward slash without having even done it. :ugeek:

In a sense. What PoV should I focus on? The slicer-you, or the before-travel you?
By the way, I don't really have a headache yet. :D

Braid is a game.
And the backwards sword cutting is a paradox.
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Re: Metaverse model

Postby Pixelmage on Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:20 am

@Dryu.
I drew up a representation of what I understood from the Witch's experiment... No 4D or 5D shapes on PowerPoint though... So it's a 3D representation at best.

Verse Model (Small).png
Witch's Verse Model
Verse Model (Small).png (48.94 KiB) Viewed 7490 times


Any thoughts? Too grossly wrong?
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